”Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I WILL RAISE UP EVIL against you from your own household; I WILL EVEN TAKE YOUR WIVES before ...
Tuese Ahkiong ”Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I WILL RAISE UP EVIL against you from your own household; I WILL EVEN TAKE YOUR WIVES before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. ’Indeed you did it secretly, but I WILL DO THIS thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 2 Samuel ...
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May 7 at 12:52pm · Comment · Like
Jason Bradfield and Jordan Grant like this.
Tamilla Quiring Did God make David do what he did?
May 7 at 6:55pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong what do u think, tam? ps 139.16 david says God has ordained all the days of his life before one of them came to be...
May 7 at 8:57pm ·
Jordan Grant How can such a truth be denied? :) Great verse showing God's sovereign hand even in evil.
May 7 at 9:06pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Tam, does God only ordain some of the days, especially not the days when David is murdering and committing adultery?
FB Christians,
Most free willers are idolaters b/c they are making God into their own image. They do not submit the Scripture but are constantly RE-interpreting Scripture to accommodate their man centered view. They don't want a God who has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy and HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS TO HARDEN. Their bibles are hole-EEE because there are several holes in them that exclude passages that don't conform to their idolatry. Free Willers want to domesticate God into one big love bubble called Santa Claus. They fight tooth and nail over THE SUPPOSED RIGHTS OF THE CREATURE.
Does it bother you, free willers that God is God and you are not and that He can do whatever He so chooses to do with His creation??? Do you remember He is the Potter and you are but clay for noble use or common?
May 7 at 10:29pm ·
Phil Hickman Tuese- Read my comment on your post (God Controls Everything). You say (man) doesnt have free will. Well i posted a few scriptures for you that God has given man free will. And there are a ton more.
My biggest problem with this debate is that we are putting God in a box. We are saying this s a rule and God does this.
Paul sums it up best with this in Romans 11
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
God can impede with man and at times he has shown he hasnt. This debate is silly. Because what we are doing is trying to figure out the ways and mind of God.
Life is a mystery dont waste time trying to figure it out.
May 8 at 8:32am ·
Ward Fenley Jesus said, "Whoever commits sin is the slave of sin." Are slaves free? Also, if God knows everything, and nothing can happen any differently than the way God knows it will happen, then it is not free. It is bound by God's knowledge, so that there is no possibility of deviating from the foreknowledge. Free will is a myth, both anthropologically and philosophically.
May 8 at 8:48am ·
Phil Hickman Ward- there are many scriptures that (appear) to show that man has free will. Do you think that is because (God allowed it) or do you feel that God put it in his heart to do it but it appears to the man that he has done it?
May 8 at 8:55am ·
Ward Fenley Hi Phil. Freewill, like self-righteousness of old, is an imagination of man. Does God place things in hearts? Revelation 17:8,17 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."
Yes, God puts things in our hearts to fulfill His purposes. For example: Isaiah 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Isaiah knew that God is sovereign. He also knew that only God could restore them. I have two articles which may interest you on this subject:
www.eschatology.com/supralapsarianism.html andwww.eschatology.com/sovereignty.html
The absolute sovereignty of God is a doctrine even hated more than the doctrine of preterism because it takes away man's control completely and teaches us that God is entirely iin control of our every thought and breath. We don't like that by nature. Nevertheless:
Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
May 8 at 9:07am ·
Phil Hickman Ward- there are many scriptures that do look like he has given man free choose. What do you say to those? I posted a few on Tuese's post, (God is in control). To me and the way I see it, there are times he has given man freedom in matters and at other times he has impeded. So I'm not sure about this. I could be wrong. But from the aspect of many scriptures from the outside looking in, it does look like we at times do have freedom.
May 8 at 9:14am ·
Jason Bradfield Phil, you have complained before that we can't figure the bible out, so why do you keep quoting the bible and pretend to know what it means? Why do you have it figured out, but Tuese doesn't? What makes you so special? Also, God cannot lie. Is that putting him in a box? Is that putting rules on what God can or cannot do? You're saying God doesn't cause evil...how is that not a rule/box that you are putting God in? Also, the word "will" does not in any shape form or fashion imply the philosophical idea of "free will". Contrary to what you claim, you have yet to provide a single verse in which the philosophical idea of free-will can be deduced. And if the theory of free-will is inherent within the meaning of will, then why do free-willers always include the qualifier "free"?
May 8 at 9:28am ·
Ward Fenley The Bible says, "Come unto Me and I will give you rest." Yet Jesus also says, "No one can come to me unless the Father which has sent me drag Him." The Bible says, "Call upon the Lord while He is near." Yet the Bible says, "There is no one who calls upon Your name." The Bible says, "Seek the Lord while He may be found." Yet the Bible says, "There is no one who seeks after God." The Bible says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He the right to become the children of God." Yet the Bible says, "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God." Therefore, what God is telling us is that we cannot obey His commands. This is why the Psalmist wrote: "Your people shall be willing *in the day of Your power*. And it's why Jesus wrote, "No man can come to me except the Father drag Him." God gave us commands we could not obey so that we would know that the only reason we ever believed in Him is because He predestined us and ordained us to eternal life: Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Yes, we make choices. But all those choices are caused by God. We were haters of God. How can slaves to sin who hate God suddenly love God who is infinite in holiness? How? by His grace which turns the hearts of those whom He loves and those for whom He died.
May 8 at 9:31am ·
Tamilla Quiring Ward - the KJV says "draw" what version says "drag"?
May 8 at 9:54am ·
Jordan Grant Because the Greek word translated as "draw" actually was more akin to "drag".
May 8 at 10:19am ·
Phil Hickman Jason Bradfield- Here is one and I will send some more to you. I also do not appreciate the tone or manner in which have and continue to speak to me. If you want a friendly debate i am more than welcome to do that, but if you cant handle someone having a different opinion than you then please refrain from speaking to me. Thankyou.
back on the free will issue. How would you explain this if man doent have some freedom. :)
Nathan Rebukes David
1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except ... See Moreone little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his ... See Morechildren. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "
13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die."
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
David had sinned, and a prophet of the Lord had pronounced doom upon the young child begotten from David's adulterous and murderous affair.
David was no fatalist so like Hezekiah did generations later, David sought for the Lord to change His mind through prayer and fasting, this is what any man faith who knows the ways of God would react. In this case, his prayers were not granted. He was not wrong to think "Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live." The future is not set and unchangeable. Sometimes God does change a future outcome, He sees things as they really are, subject to change, a great reason for us to be persevering in prayer and petition. Something a determinist could not in all good faith, because his suppositions will not allow the possiblilty of God ever changing His mind
May 8 at 10:19am ·
Phil Hickman Phil Hickman Tuese- Here is another example. The last paragrapgh is from a gentlemen that I have been discussing this with. Tose are his thoughts. :)
1 Samuel 23
David Saves Keilah
1 When David was told, "Look, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are looting the threshing floors," 2 he inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall I go and attack these Philistines?" ... See More
... See More
The LORD answered him, "Go, attack the Philistines and save Keilah."
3 But David's men said to him, "Here in Judah we are afraid. How much more, then, if we go to Keilah against the Philistine forces!"
4 Once again David inquired of the LORD, and the LORD answered him, "Go down to Keilah, for I am going to give the Philistines into your hand." 5 So David and his men went to Keilah, fought the Philistines and carried off their livestock. He inflicted heavy losses on the Philistines and saved the people of Keilah. 6 (Now Abiathar son of Ahimelech had brought the ephod down with him when he fled to David at Keilah.)
Saul Pursues David
7 Saul was told that David had gone to Keilah, and he said, "God has handed him over to me, for David has imprisoned himself by entering a town with gates and bars." 8 And Saul called up all his forces for battle, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.
9 When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod." 10 David said, "O LORD, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. 11 Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, God of Israel, tell your servant."
And the LORD said, "He will."
12 Again David asked, "Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?"
And the LORD said, "They will."
13 So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.
14 David stayed in the desert strongholds and in the hills of the Desert of Ziph. Day after day Saul searched for him, but God did not give David into his hands.
David, a man after God's own heart, was no fatalist as so many "advanced" Bible Students seem to be. He knew the future could be changed and yet God is not a liar. David simply left Keliah, and the possible future changed, so Saul did not come down (as had said he would) and the people of the city didn't give David up (even though it was prophesied that they would). God allowed the future of Saul and David to have contingency.
May 8 at 10:20am ·
Phil Hickman Here is another example. The last paragraph is a commentarty by the same gentlemen. :)
Jeremiah 26
Jeremiah Threatened With Death
1 Early in the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came from the LORD : 2 "This is what the LORD says: Stand in the courtyard of the LORD's house and speak to all the people of the towns of... See More Judah who come to worship in the house of the LORD. Tell them everything I command you; do ... See Morenot omit a word. 3 Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.
God actually uses words of contingency for the future. He says "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way." And even says that He will relent and not bring the disaster He was planning, i.e. He can change His plans! Something the God of Fatalistic philosophy could not do. He never lies about what He will do.
May 8 at 10:21am ·
Jordan Grant Phil, if God is omniscient, the future is set. Because David didn't know the future doesn't say a thing about it being set. There is no possible way LOGICALLY to believe in omniscience and at the same time believe in a changeable future. Zero. You may as well declare open theism.
May 8 at 10:22am ·
Phil Hickman Jordan- why did God give them an option? It is his will that we do his will but occording tp these scriptures it shows man has freedom.
May 8 at 10:24am ·
Phil Hickman God actually uses words of contingency for the future. He says "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way." And even says that He will relent and not bring the disaster He was planning
May 8 at 10:28am ·
Phil Hickman If I decide to go to strip club tonight and thats not Gods (will) then who is responsible for that? We know that God cannot tempt me with evil. So it would obviously me of my choosing.
This is my opinion for what it is worth, and thats not saying much, but I think that there are times where God lets us choose which will to serve his or ours, and there are times that he puts in our hearts to do his will. His will is that we will do his will but we know that we dont all the time.
When the twin towers crumbled, was that Gods will for that to happen? Was that Gods will for those men to hijack those planes and ram them into the towers killing many of people?
I think this is an endless debate. Its trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. We will never know his ways or his judgments.
May 8 at 11:02am ·
Jason Bradfield Phil, I'm puzzled at how you can detect a tone in my words. Perhaps you are the one that can't handle debate. I am merely pressing you on the implications of your words. Just days ago you complained that the bible is getting harder to understand, that no one can figure it out, and that you were even growing bitter against it; YET, right after you say things like that, you then proceed to tell people what the bible means. You did it again with this thread. On the one hand you claim this debate is silly and endless and you ask, "who knows?", but then you turn right around and tell us that the bible teaches free will and accuse us of boxing God. So, I want to know Phil...what makes you so special? What special insight or privileges do you have that the rest of us don't? How come Tuese can't know the answer to this issue but you can?
I hope you realize that Joseph Smith went down the same exact path you expressed just days ago. He too complained about all the various demominations and interpretations, and then next thing you know, he claims to be a prophet...supposedly solving the issues that the rest of us couldn't. And the cult was born.
As for your quotes, you still have not provided a single one in which the idea that man wills free from God's decrees can be deduced from the text. They are no more saying that than they are saying that Larry Bird was a great ball player.
May 8 at 11:23am ·
Phil Hickman Jason- I have just posted plenty. Anwser this sir- God actually uses words of contingency for the future. He says "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way." And even says that He will relent and not bring the disaster He was planning
May 8 at 11:27am ·
Ward Fenley Phil...Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
So, one verse says He will relent if they turn. The other says God does not change His mind. Omniscience doesn't change it's Mind. Notice though. One says he doesn't change His mind. However, the other does not say He did change His mind...but that's beside the point. Because if God knows everything, He cannot change His plans or His mind. That's irrational and illogical. There is a well-known hermeneutic: Interpret the obscure in light of the clear. These statements you see are God speaking in anthropomorphisms--language to suit the insufficiency of man to understand God, much like "God protecting us with His everlasting wings." He isn't a chicken. But He does protect us. Did you read those articles? We have to take the character of God presented clearly in Scripture and interpret passages which seem to contradict. The perspective you are taking diminishes the attribute of God's omniscience. Ours emphasizes it. So we always ask the question: does our doctrine diminish or exalt God's attributes?
Ward
May 8 at 4:39pm ·
Ward Fenley Hi Tamilla, compare:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Acts 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
In every case where the word helkuo is used, it is used in reference to external and active movement. We must ask, why would God drag us? Because "all we like sheep have gone astray..." :) Tamilla, if God didn't drag you and me, we would never come to Him. I am glad He didn't leave it up to my will, for I would certainly perish in my hatred of Him.
May 8 at 4:48pm ·
Ward Fenley Oh, Tamilla, one other thing: Here is Strong's definition:
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.
It is not, as some neo-evangelicals and Arminians suppose, "woo." God doesn't woo. He effectively chooses. That's why the Bible says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." And the most important thing to remember: It's based upon nothing we have done:
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
May 8 at 4:51pm ·
Mike Boswell Tuese - Those are some pretty harsh accusations that you have about "free-willers" (see 4th comment down). How in the world can you throw blanket accusations out like that without even knowing the minds or hearts of those you stereotype and accuse? I am not seeking to make God into my image. I was made in God's image. Could it be that part of God's image that He has given to us is the ability to choose? To have free will? Absolutely. To say that I don't submit to the Scriptures without your knowing what my walk with God is like, what my prayer life is like, or what my actions are like is about as judgmental and arrogant as it gets, Tuese. I know and understand that God hardens whom He hardens and has mercy on whom He has mercy. That's right from Exodus. I have no problem with that. But even that verse IN ITS CONTEXT says nothing about the eternal destination of a man or mankind. In its context it speaks about a season in one man's life (Pharaoh) and decisions he made at one point in time based on a hardened heart. That's it. My Bible is not hole-EEE (which sounds very sarcastic and disrespectful by the way) as you say. I don't claim to have all the answers to the difficult verses, but I don't throw anything out. I have never had any ambition of trying to domesticate God or turn Him into a Santa Claus. What does free will have to do with that accusation? According to the Bible, the creature has no rights except to love one another. So, to claim belief in free will, how is that fighting for rights? And, it does not bother me one bit that God is God and I'm not. Why would it? I'm so glad He's God and I'm not. Your statements only serve to polarize those you are called to love and serve. How are those statements either loving or serving?
So, do you include the likes of Billy Graham, Jack Hayford, AW Tozer, CS Lewis, Chuck Smith, Bill Hybels, Josh McDowell, Ravi Zacharias, or other great thinking, God loving and God-serving "free willers" in your list of accusations? If so, that's pretty stinking arrogant, Tuese. It's one thing to believe that we're wrong on an issue. It's quite another to make dramatic false accusations because we believe differently. Life isn't all black and white. It's mostly color. And, even if we are wrong (which as you know I don't believe), how are your words edifying to us as believers or glorifying to God?
May 8 at 9:39pm ·
Martin Slagle Thank you Mike. :o)
May 9 at 9:21am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
[How in the world can you throw blanket accusations out like that without even knowing the minds or hearts of those you stereotype and accuse?]
**Mike, I do know the minds/hearts by what free willers are teaching.
[Could it be that part of God's image that He has given to us is the ability to choose?] To have free will?]
**Man has a will and makes choices but MAN'S WILL IS NOT FREE. One can't freely will to fly like superman or freely will to not sin, or freely will to turn invisible b/c one's nature limits him or especially COME TO JESUS UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT JESUS ENABLES HIM.
**The hardening passage is from Romans 9 which I look to hear your interpretation.
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
[Hole-EEE bibles}
I have not had a free willer not side step this passage as well as the others I have listed. Please give me your interpretation of free will from this passage.
[I have never had any ambition of trying to domesticate God or turn Him into a Santa Claus. What does free will have to do with that accusation?]
**Free willers are saying something false about God and who He is.
[ According to the Bible, the creature has no rights except to love one another. So, to claim belief in free will, how is that fighting for rights?]
**You're begging the question
[How are those statements either loving or serving?]
**Please forgive me if you were offended. I was showing the logical conclusions of free will theology.
**Billy Graham and the rest just need to be corrected. I'm sure as men of God they would be open and teachable to be shown their error. Just like I would, if you can show me from Scripture.
And brother Martyn, you haven't responded to my 2Peter 3 passage regarding God not wanting any to perish. By not responding are you saying you agree with the interpretation?
May 9 at 10:11am ·
Ward Fenley Hi Mike,
I don't think we have a right to peer into a man's heart who preaches a false gospel. Now, granted, Arminianism is a false gospel. And those who preach it are preaching a false gospel, because it is grace+will which is no different than grace + circumcision (circumcision=will, for to will is to will to be circumcised). Rather, God would justify the heathen through faith. That is, for God's covenant people, He would give them faith and make them willing in order to fulfill the command, "Whosever believeth." And who will believe?
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
"as many as." And Christ said:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
"as many as" Revelation says:
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
So how do we repent?
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God has to grant the repentance. Why? Because we cannot repent unless He grants it:
Jeremiah 31:18-19 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. (19) Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
"after I was turned, I repented." But you say, "We must open our hearts." Actually, again, the Lord has to do that:
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Is faith a gift?
Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, ***the faith which is by him*** hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Now, could God save a person even though someone else's twisting of Scripture? Absolutely. God is more sovereign than wicked preachers. But can turn what evil men spew into the Logos which brings life. God doesn't need English. "It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
But when someone asks me if a person who is preaching a false gospel is saved, I reply, "I don't know. But if Christ died for him, his eternity is secure."
Along the same lines, if a person asks me if an unloving and unmerciful Calvinist is saved, I say, "I don't know, but if Christ didn't die for him, he is certainly condemned already."
But everywhere in Scripture I see Paul affirming the salvation of those who trust in the Lord, not in freewill.
May 9 at 2:19pm ·
Mike Boswell Wow Tuese. I can't believe how arrogant you really are - that you actually think you know my heart and my mind. I had better hopes for you brother. Only God knows the heart, yet you claim to know mine - and all other "free-willers." Pride comes before a fall, my friend.
Remember Jesus' words and woes to the Pharisees who were "experts in the law." Woe to them because of how legalistic they were in the minute details of the law, but failed to exhibit justice with mercy and compassion.
Regarding Romans 9 - It shows how one-tracked you are, Tuese. You and I talked it through when I was with you, but you somehow "forgot." Again, the context of Romans 9-11 has to do with the nation of Israel. Nowhere in that passage does Paul make a generalized statement that God has not given mankind the freedom to choose. And, by the way, of course we can't "will to fly." I'm not dumb. Then on the other hand, man has made all sorts of aircraft.
By the way, Tuese - I have not side-stepped any one of your Scriptures or questions you posed to me. If there have been some that I haven't responded to that met your expectations, that's not my fault. And...I can only respond to so much - in that I am in the midst of planting a new church, working a second job, and trying to be a good husband and father. My life doesn't revolve around this issue, but I care about you. And I care that you and others like Ward have been taken captive by a hollow and deceptive philosophy that you seem to have become obsessed with.
And then your arrogance about all these other great thinkers and servants in the faith - that you know better than they do. Wow. If I had the opportunity, I would love to sit with any one of those guys - even for an hour - and learn from them - as they have walked with Christ much longer than I have and done more for the kingdom than I could ever dream of doing. I wouldn't even think of correcting them.
I have to go now - and I might take time to respond to some of your other shocking statements. But, I have to say Tuese - by your responses and "answers" there is something deeply wrong in your heart. That you are only willing to see people through the lense of your false doctrine. You aren't willing to see past that. You aren't willing to do as Jesus did and see the person that lies on the other side of whatever doctrine you believe. But instead, you lump all "free-willers" who don't think like you into the category of stupid, idolatrous, Santa Claus worshipers.
And yes, I can and will forgive you Tuese. Because you have offended me - and many others. And by the way, your conclusions are not logical - at all.
And Ward - you're the one spreading a false gospel. Not me. Gospel is the good news. What good news is there for someone predestined to hell? The good news is that Jesus died for ALL. It's up to us if we will receive by faith what He desires to give to all.
May 9 at 3:37pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
One can know what a person's heart and mind is like by how they speak. Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So, as free willers speak, one can know their heart and mind on an issue. That's how we discern a person, spirit in light of the Bible.
re: Pharisees. Jesus told them straight up (Matt23), they're going to hell. Did Jesus die for them? Does John 3.16 apply to them?
Are you trying to say b/c I'm teaching doctrine and it doesn't make you feel good
The Romans 9 passage uses specific people Jacob and Esau. And even if it were talking about nations or Israel, nations are made up of individuals. You, too, have biases, especially the fact that you assume man has "free will." You have not proven it from the Bible. You only assumed it and then you go on your rant... Plus, how do you reconcile it with all the passages where God is predestining, ordaining, choosing, electing. Is man free to will against God's election? You're not consistent, Mike.
[And I care that you and others like Ward have been taken captive by a hollow and deceptive philosophy that you seem to have become obsessed with.]
**OH, YOU SEEM TO KNOW MY HEART AND MIND.
re: Great Thinkers
I respect all the men and their ministries. But if they or you are wrong on a point about Scripture, would you want to be corrected.
We don't trust in men no matter how great they are in eyes of people. Remember, they are but men and they will always let us down.
This is why we trust in Scripture alone.
I can easily put up dozens of names, too, that reject free will.
RC Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur, CS Spurgeon, Paul Washer, Albert Mohler, Phil Johnson, Matthew Henry, Mark Driscoll, James Kennedy, James White, J.I. Packer, John Huss, John Gill, James Montgomery Boice, DA Carson, Gary DeMar, BB Warfield, Augustine, Arthur Pink,...
Mike, are you so arrogant to say that these men are teaching deceptive philosophy???
Mike,
So, if you as a pastor are teaching false doctrine wouldn't you want to know? There's tons of false doctrine coming out of pentecostal churches and you know what I mean.
Mike, The Truth of God's Word will always offend a man-centered theology.
My conclusions are not logical b/c The Great Mike Boswell says they're not logical. What kind of argument is that!!!??? Show me from Scripture. Otherwise, I can easily throw back your rants...
MIKE, I BELIEVE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN but just inconsistent in this area.
DO YOU BELIEVE I AM CHRISTIAN?
May 9 at 6:56pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Martin,
Don't think that I forgot about those 2 other dialogs we had. I'm still waiting for your responses
May 9 at 7:06pm ·
Mike Boswell [One can know what a person's heart and mind is like by how they speak. Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So, as free willers speak, one can know their heart and mind on an issue. That's how we discern a person, spirit in light of the Bible.] -Tuese, there is a difference between knowing what a person believes and knowing what is in a person's heart. You know what "free willers" in general believe because of what they teach. That is far different than what Jesus was talking about. Again, look at the context, and don't assume. Each time Jesus taught about "the overflow/abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" He was talking about sinfulness and evil vs. good. There is a major difference between the two. How can you know what my relationship with God is like? How can you know the joys, the pains, the struggles, the faith or lack thereof? How can you know what's confessed before God and what's not? There is a HUGE difference between sin/wickedness and belief about a doctrine. Your statement appears that you don't care about a person's heart, but that you only care about whether they're right or wrong according to your point of view. So, Tuese, you don't know what's in my heart (or anyone else's) beyond what I share with you.
[re: Pharisees. Jesus told them straight up (Matt23), they're going to hell. Did Jesus die for them? Does John 3.16 apply to them? Are you trying to say b/c I'm teaching doctrine and it doesn't make you feel good...] Yes, Jesus died for them. Yes, John 3:16 applies to them. I know you have your own definition for "world" but your definition of it is not the context. It is very possible that not all the Pharisees went to hell. There were Pharisees that came to Christ. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea decided to follow Christ. Paul was a Pharisee and got saved. There were others (see Acts 15:5). And regarding whether I judge doctrine based on whether I feel good or not is about as lame accusation as I've heard. The answer is that it has nothing to do with my feelings. As I have said over and over again, it's about the context of Scripture, not about feelings.
By the way, look at this Scripture (Acts 15:7) “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe." Would you say from this passage that all Gentiles will believe? If not, why not?
[You, too, have biases, especially the fact that you assume man has "free will." You have not proven it from the Bible. You only assumed it and then you go on your rant...Plus, how do you reconcile it with all the passages where God is predestining, ordaining, choosing, electing. Is man free to will against God's election? You're not consistent, Mike.] Tuese, your bias is that you ASSUME that Calvin is right and that man has no free will. So, you read through those lenses. Most of the Bible discusses nothing of predestination. So, reading the vast majority of the Bible in its context speaks left and right, up and down about choices mankind makes apart from God. Choices against God's will. I don't know what "proof" you're looking for - but the evidence is everywhere in Scripture. Some of your other blogger friends have pointed out Scripture as have I, but you haven't responded. You just keep throwing out your ammo and won't deal with what we have given you. And, about reconciling it with all the passages where God is predestining and so forth - how in the world can anyone do it justice on facebook? People write books on these subjects and you expect a thesis to try to undo your belief system? That's nuts! To answer in a brief nutshell, I will say this: God has predestined, chosen, ordained a glorious hope and future for all who choose to receive and follow His Son Jesus.
I still haven't heard from you a sound exegetical response to such Scriptures as 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9.
Regarding great thinkers. Yes, I want to be corrected where I am wrong. I have been corrected by God and by others. I am still learning - I admit that. But so far your "correction" has proven fruitless. And, I know that these great thinkers are mere men, but are we too arrogant that we can learn from them? That we have to correct everybody we disagree with? The men you listed - if I had an hour with them, I would sit and learn all I can from them. They are worthy of respect. Though we may disagree on some thing, I can and would learn much that would enrich my life and my understanding of Scripture, and my walk with God. We trust in Scripture alone as you say. But again, you're trusting in your biases and what other men have said about Scripture more than what the plain text says. There is no way you could believe what you believe apart from the writings of Calvin, Sproul, and others you adhere to. No way that you came up with all this solely on your own reading of Scripture.
[Mike, are you so arrogant to say that these men are teaching deceptive philosophy???] I haven't read all their works, so I'm not going to lump them into a group to answer your question adequately. There may be parts of some of their teachings that are off, you bet. Only Jesus has perfect theology. Not me. Not you. Not them.
[Mike,
So, if you as a pastor are teaching false doctrine wouldn't you want to know? There's tons of false doctrine coming out of pentecostal churches and you know what I mean.] Yes I know what you mean. Some I agree with you on and some I don't (as we discussed at length at your house).
[Mike, The Truth of God's Word will always offend a man-centered theology.] Where's that in Scripture? And again, you assume that belief that a Sovereign God has gifted His creation with free will is man-centered theology. How can you prove that by Scripture? It's only an assumption and an accusation. The name it and claim it teachings are man-centered because greed and materialism are involved. But belief that a Sovereign God gave mankind freedom because of His love? That sounds pretty God-centered to me.
[My conclusions are not logical b/c The Great Mike Boswell says they're not logical. What kind of argument is that!!!??? Show me from Scripture. Otherwise, I can easily throw back your rants...] Number one: I never called myself great, nor do I see myself as great. Number two: you make leaps in many of your conclusions. Instead of A+B=C, many of your conclusions are A+B=G, H, or P. Many of your conclusions are based on your assumptions, not the rules of logic. Take a logic course at SFSU or Fuller (if they offer it) or something.
Tuese, yes I believe you are a Christian because you have chosen to follow Jesus Christ. You, as Romans 10 says, have confessed that Jesus is Lord and belief that God raised Him from the dead. (See next comment).
May 9 at 9:37pm ·
Mike Boswell The trouble is, Tuese, that you only have ears to hear what you want to hear in this regards. You don't want to hear about even the possibility of free will. You have gone so far to the extreme that you have no room for any other possibilities. As soon as you know someone is a freewiller, walls go up. They seem to become an adversary to you - placed in a position of having to argue and debate - instead of someone who you can love, serve, and learn from. It becomes about who's right (you) and who's wrong (everyone who doesn't agree with your perspective) - instead of, "I wonder how I can minister grace to this person's life" or "Jesus set the example of washing feet, "how can I wash my brother's feet."
To be honest (not that I haven't been), and I don't say this in anger at all. But I can't help but wonder if more and more people who come in contact with you see you as the "resounding gong" in 1 Corinthians 13:1 rather than a lover of people as described in verses 4-8. I'm not saying that you're absolutely loveless. But that's how you come across - arguing, accusing, belittling, and graceless with all who believe differently. How many people have you wounded, angered, or isolated yourself from? What good is that?
Jesus showed love and grace even to those who didn't deserve it, rejected Him, or had no interest in following Him. Even those who didn't have it all together theologically.
I don't know what else to say. Except that I hope you one day can see beyond the heartless dogma.
Your friend since high school.
Mike
May 9 at 9:46pm ·
Ward Fenley btw, not sure who wrote this: "And I care that you and others like Ward have been taken captive by a hollow and deceptive philosophy that you seem to have become obsessed with" Because it showed up in my private email but it's not here, and it was in a cut and paste, so I can't figure out who it is. :) Anyway, I don't see what I have posted to this list as hollow and deceptive...just for the record.
May 10 at 5:28am ·
Tuese Ahkiong [How can you know what my relationship with God is like? How can you know the joys, the pains, the struggles, the faith or lack thereof? How can you know what's confessed before God and what's not? There is a HUGE difference between sin/wickedness and belief about a doctrine. Your statement appears that you don't care about a person's heart, but that you only care about whether they're right or wrong according to your point of view. So, Tuese, you don't know what's in my heart (or anyone else's) beyond what I share with you.]
***Mike, we're talking theology and doctrine. If I'm teaching an idolatrous doctrine, I'd want to know.
[And regarding whether I judge doctrine based on whether I feel good or not is about as lame accusation as I've heard. The answer is that it has nothing to do with my feelings. As I have said over and over again, it's about the context of Scripture, not about feelings.]
***Then why are you bringing up these emotional issues of knowing what's in person's heart.
[By the way, look at this Scripture (Acts 15:7) “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe." Would you say from this passage that all Gentiles will believe? If not, why not?]
***NO, B/C OF THE CONTEXT. SEE V8-9, GOD GAVE THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FAITH.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
[Most of the Bible discusses nothing of predestination. So, reading the vast majority of the Bible in its context speaks left and right, up and down about choices mankind makes apart from God. Choices against God's will.]
***Mike, how is it that man can do anything apart from God? Does not God sustain the entire universe including men by the power of His Word?
Did not Jesus state that Judas would do a sinful action and Peter, too, which were choices against God's will, sin?
[Though we may disagree on some thing, I can and would learn much that would enrich my life and my understanding of Scripture, and my walk with God. We trust in Scripture alone as you say. But again, you're trusting in your biases and what other men have said about Scripture more than what the plain text says. There is no way you could believe what you believe apart from the writings of Calvin, Sproul, and others you adhere to. No way that you came up with all this solely on your own reading of Scripture.]
***Did I say that I can't learn from them? You're assuming that. In fact, I have learn much from them.
But you can't learn from Calvinists b/c of your bias. Read the tone of your words. You sound like Reformed people are Antichrists or False teachers. You're probably nodding your head "yes." lol. Mike, it works both ways. We are entrenched with our worldview.
May 10 at 9:13pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong [I haven't read all their works, so I'm not going to lump them into a group to answer your question adequately. There may be parts of some of their teachings that are off, you bet. Only Jesus has perfect theology. Not me. Not you. Not them.]
***Ain't it amazing how Christian men can believe diametrically opposing views?
[Mike, The Truth of God's Word will always offend a man-centered theology.] Where's that in Scripture? And again, you assume that belief that a Sovereign God has gifted His creation with free will is man-centered theology. How can you prove that by Scripture? It's only an assumption and an accusation. The name it and claim it teachings are man-centered because greed and materialism are involved. But belief that a Sovereign God gave mankind freedom because of His love? That sounds pretty God-centered to me. ]
***Mike, you have been totally offended by the tons of Scripture I've posted. Here's just a few again:
. John 5:21. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life TO WHOM HE WISHES
. John 6:37-39 All that the FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
. John 6:44 "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, and I will raise him up at the last day.
. John 6:64-65 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER HAS ENABLED HIM."
THESE VERSES SHOW MAN'S INABILITY TO COME TO JESUS. What do you say Mike?
CAN A PERSON COME TO JESUS APART FROM GOD THE FATHER ENABLING THAT PERSON AND GIVING THAT PERSON TO JESUS? If you answer "yes" you have a man-centered theology.
[Many of your conclusions are based on your assumptions, not the rules of logic. Take a logic course at SFSU or Fuller (if they offer it) or something.]
Mike, I've taken 3 Logic courses and one under your favorite pastor theologian, R.C. Sproul. Yay!!!!
-We just have different worldviews on soteriology and eschatology and probably the charismatic gifts.
I'M GLAD GOD HAS PREDESTINED OUR CONVERSATIONS. I THINK IT'S SHARPENING US.
May 10 at 9:32pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Here are the verses that God has not made salvation available to all, in fact, He has predestined some to destruction:
1. 1 Peter 2:7-9 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” THEY STUMBLE, BEING DISOBEDIENT TO THE WORD, TO WHICH THEY ALSO WERE APPOINTED. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2. 2 Peter 2:10-13. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, BORN TO BE CAUGHT AND DESTROYED, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
3. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Jude 1:11-13 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom IS RESERVED THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER.
5. 2 Thess 1.6-9 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8HE WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. 9THEY WILL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION AND SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER 10ON THE DAY HE COMES TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS HOLY PEOPLE AND TO BE MARVELED AT AMONG ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
6. 2 Thess 2:11-13 And for this reason GOD WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE, 12 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE CONDEMNED WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because GOD FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSE YOU FOR SALVATION through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
7. Rom 11:5-10 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY.” 9 AND DAVID SAYS: “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RECOMPENSE TO THEM. 10 LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED, SO THAT THEY DO NOT SEE, AND BOW DOWN THEIR BACK ALWAYS.”
8. Revelation 17:8,17 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 17 “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
9. Matthew 11:21-27 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 “But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 “And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 “But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.” 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that YOU HAVE HIDDEN THESE THINGS FROM THE WISE AND PRUDENT and have revealed them to babes. 26 “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, AND THE ONE TO WHOM THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM.
10. Matthew 13 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT HAS NOT BEEN GRANTED. 12”For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13”Therefore I speak to them in parables; because WHILE SEEING THEY DO NOT SEE, AND WHILE HEARING THEY DO NOT HEAR, NOR DO THEY UNDERSTAND. 14”In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
16”But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17”For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
11. Mark 4:11-12 11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
12. John 6:63-66 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
13. John 12:37-41 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HARDENED THEIR HEARTS, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him
May 11 at 3:12pm ·
”Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before....
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May 7 at 12:52pm · Comment · Like
Jason Bradfield and Jordan Grant like this.
Tamilla Quiring Did God make David do what he did?
May 7 at 6:55pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong what do u think, tam? ps 139.16 david says God has ordained all the days of his life before one of them came to be...
May 7 at 8:57pm ·
Jordan Grant How can such a truth be denied? :) Great verse showing God's sovereign hand even in evil.
May 7 at 9:06pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Tam, does God only ordain some of the days, especially not the days when David is murdering and committing adultery?
FB Christians,
Most free willers are idolaters b/c they are making God into their own image. They do not submit the Scripture but are constantly RE-interpreting Scripture to accommodate their man centered view. They don't want a God who has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy and HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS TO HARDEN. Their bibles are hole-EEE because there are several holes in them that exclude passages that don't conform to their idolatry. Free Willers want to domesticate God into one big love bubble called Santa Claus. They fight tooth and nail over THE SUPPOSED RIGHTS OF THE CREATURE.
Does it bother you, free willers that God is God and you are not and that He can do whatever He so chooses to do with His creation??? Do you remember He is the Potter and you are but clay for noble use or common?
May 7 at 10:29pm ·
Phil Hickman Tuese- Read my comment on your post (God Controls Everything). You say (man) doesnt have free will. Well i posted a few scriptures for you that God has given man free will. And there are a ton more.
My biggest problem with this debate is that we are putting God in a box. We are saying this s a rule and God does this.
Paul sums it up best with this in Romans 11
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
God can impede with man and at times he has shown he hasnt. This debate is silly. Because what we are doing is trying to figure out the ways and mind of God.
Life is a mystery dont waste time trying to figure it out.
May 8 at 8:32am ·
Ward Fenley Jesus said, "Whoever commits sin is the slave of sin." Are slaves free? Also, if God knows everything, and nothing can happen any differently than the way God knows it will happen, then it is not free. It is bound by God's knowledge, so that there is no possibility of deviating from the foreknowledge. Free will is a myth, both anthropologically and philosophically.
May 8 at 8:48am ·
Phil Hickman Ward- there are many scriptures that (appear) to show that man has free will. Do you think that is because (God allowed it) or do you feel that God put it in his heart to do it but it appears to the man that he has done it?
May 8 at 8:55am ·
Ward Fenley Hi Phil. Freewill, like self-righteousness of old, is an imagination of man. Does God place things in hearts? Revelation 17:8,17 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."
Yes, God puts things in our hearts to fulfill His purposes. For example: Isaiah 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Isaiah knew that God is sovereign. He also knew that only God could restore them. I have two articles which may interest you on this subject:
www.eschatology.com/supralapsarianism.html andwww.eschatology.com/sovereignty.html
The absolute sovereignty of God is a doctrine even hated more than the doctrine of preterism because it takes away man's control completely and teaches us that God is entirely iin control of our every thought and breath. We don't like that by nature. Nevertheless:
Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
May 8 at 9:07am ·
Phil Hickman Ward- there are many scriptures that do look like he has given man free choose. What do you say to those? I posted a few on Tuese's post, (God is in control). To me and the way I see it, there are times he has given man freedom in matters and at other times he has impeded. So I'm not sure about this. I could be wrong. But from the aspect of many scriptures from the outside looking in, it does look like we at times do have freedom.
May 8 at 9:14am ·
Jason Bradfield Phil, you have complained before that we can't figure the bible out, so why do you keep quoting the bible and pretend to know what it means? Why do you have it figured out, but Tuese doesn't? What makes you so special? Also, God cannot lie. Is that putting him in a box? Is that putting rules on what God can or cannot do? You're saying God doesn't cause evil...how is that not a rule/box that you are putting God in? Also, the word "will" does not in any shape form or fashion imply the philosophical idea of "free will". Contrary to what you claim, you have yet to provide a single verse in which the philosophical idea of free-will can be deduced. And if the theory of free-will is inherent within the meaning of will, then why do free-willers always include the qualifier "free"?
May 8 at 9:28am ·
Ward Fenley The Bible says, "Come unto Me and I will give you rest." Yet Jesus also says, "No one can come to me unless the Father which has sent me drag Him." The Bible says, "Call upon the Lord while He is near." Yet the Bible says, "There is no one who calls upon Your name." The Bible says, "Seek the Lord while He may be found." Yet the Bible says, "There is no one who seeks after God." The Bible says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He the right to become the children of God." Yet the Bible says, "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God." Therefore, what God is telling us is that we cannot obey His commands. This is why the Psalmist wrote: "Your people shall be willing *in the day of Your power*. And it's why Jesus wrote, "No man can come to me except the Father drag Him." God gave us commands we could not obey so that we would know that the only reason we ever believed in Him is because He predestined us and ordained us to eternal life: Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Yes, we make choices. But all those choices are caused by God. We were haters of God. How can slaves to sin who hate God suddenly love God who is infinite in holiness? How? by His grace which turns the hearts of those whom He loves and those for whom He died.
May 8 at 9:31am ·
Tamilla Quiring Ward - the KJV says "draw" what version says "drag"?
May 8 at 9:54am ·
Jordan Grant Because the Greek word translated as "draw" actually was more akin to "drag".
May 8 at 10:19am ·
Phil Hickman Jason Bradfield- Here is one and I will send some more to you. I also do not appreciate the tone or manner in which have and continue to speak to me. If you want a friendly debate i am more than welcome to do that, but if you cant handle someone having a different opinion than you then please refrain from speaking to me. Thankyou.
back on the free will issue. How would you explain this if man doent have some freedom. :)
Nathan Rebukes David
1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except ... See Moreone little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his ... See Morechildren. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "
13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die."
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
David had sinned, and a prophet of the Lord had pronounced doom upon the young child begotten from David's adulterous and murderous affair.
David was no fatalist so like Hezekiah did generations later, David sought for the Lord to change His mind through prayer and fasting, this is what any man faith who knows the ways of God would react. In this case, his prayers were not granted. He was not wrong to think "Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live." The future is not set and unchangeable. Sometimes God does change a future outcome, He sees things as they really are, subject to change, a great reason for us to be persevering in prayer and petition. Something a determinist could not in all good faith, because his suppositions will not allow the possiblilty of God ever changing His mind
May 8 at 10:19am ·
Phil Hickman Phil Hickman Tuese- Here is another example. The last paragrapgh is from a gentlemen that I have been discussing this with. Tose are his thoughts. :)
1 Samuel 23
David Saves Keilah
1 When David was told, "Look, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are looting the threshing floors," 2 he inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall I go and attack these Philistines?" ... See More
... See More
The LORD answered him, "Go, attack the Philistines and save Keilah."
3 But David's men said to him, "Here in Judah we are afraid. How much more, then, if we go to Keilah against the Philistine forces!"
4 Once again David inquired of the LORD, and the LORD answered him, "Go down to Keilah, for I am going to give the Philistines into your hand." 5 So David and his men went to Keilah, fought the Philistines and carried off their livestock. He inflicted heavy losses on the Philistines and saved the people of Keilah. 6 (Now Abiathar son of Ahimelech had brought the ephod down with him when he fled to David at Keilah.)
Saul Pursues David
7 Saul was told that David had gone to Keilah, and he said, "God has handed him over to me, for David has imprisoned himself by entering a town with gates and bars." 8 And Saul called up all his forces for battle, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.
9 When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod." 10 David said, "O LORD, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. 11 Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, God of Israel, tell your servant."
And the LORD said, "He will."
12 Again David asked, "Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?"
And the LORD said, "They will."
13 So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.
14 David stayed in the desert strongholds and in the hills of the Desert of Ziph. Day after day Saul searched for him, but God did not give David into his hands.
David, a man after God's own heart, was no fatalist as so many "advanced" Bible Students seem to be. He knew the future could be changed and yet God is not a liar. David simply left Keliah, and the possible future changed, so Saul did not come down (as had said he would) and the people of the city didn't give David up (even though it was prophesied that they would). God allowed the future of Saul and David to have contingency.
May 8 at 10:20am ·
Phil Hickman Here is another example. The last paragraph is a commentarty by the same gentlemen. :)
Jeremiah 26
Jeremiah Threatened With Death
1 Early in the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came from the LORD : 2 "This is what the LORD says: Stand in the courtyard of the LORD's house and speak to all the people of the towns of... See More Judah who come to worship in the house of the LORD. Tell them everything I command you; do ... See Morenot omit a word. 3 Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.
God actually uses words of contingency for the future. He says "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way." And even says that He will relent and not bring the disaster He was planning, i.e. He can change His plans! Something the God of Fatalistic philosophy could not do. He never lies about what He will do.
May 8 at 10:21am ·
Jordan Grant Phil, if God is omniscient, the future is set. Because David didn't know the future doesn't say a thing about it being set. There is no possible way LOGICALLY to believe in omniscience and at the same time believe in a changeable future. Zero. You may as well declare open theism.
May 8 at 10:22am ·
Phil Hickman Jordan- why did God give them an option? It is his will that we do his will but occording tp these scriptures it shows man has freedom.
May 8 at 10:24am ·
Phil Hickman God actually uses words of contingency for the future. He says "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way." And even says that He will relent and not bring the disaster He was planning
May 8 at 10:28am ·
Phil Hickman If I decide to go to strip club tonight and thats not Gods (will) then who is responsible for that? We know that God cannot tempt me with evil. So it would obviously me of my choosing.
This is my opinion for what it is worth, and thats not saying much, but I think that there are times where God lets us choose which will to serve his or ours, and there are times that he puts in our hearts to do his will. His will is that we will do his will but we know that we dont all the time.
When the twin towers crumbled, was that Gods will for that to happen? Was that Gods will for those men to hijack those planes and ram them into the towers killing many of people?
I think this is an endless debate. Its trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. We will never know his ways or his judgments.
May 8 at 11:02am ·
Jason Bradfield Phil, I'm puzzled at how you can detect a tone in my words. Perhaps you are the one that can't handle debate. I am merely pressing you on the implications of your words. Just days ago you complained that the bible is getting harder to understand, that no one can figure it out, and that you were even growing bitter against it; YET, right after you say things like that, you then proceed to tell people what the bible means. You did it again with this thread. On the one hand you claim this debate is silly and endless and you ask, "who knows?", but then you turn right around and tell us that the bible teaches free will and accuse us of boxing God. So, I want to know Phil...what makes you so special? What special insight or privileges do you have that the rest of us don't? How come Tuese can't know the answer to this issue but you can?
I hope you realize that Joseph Smith went down the same exact path you expressed just days ago. He too complained about all the various demominations and interpretations, and then next thing you know, he claims to be a prophet...supposedly solving the issues that the rest of us couldn't. And the cult was born.
As for your quotes, you still have not provided a single one in which the idea that man wills free from God's decrees can be deduced from the text. They are no more saying that than they are saying that Larry Bird was a great ball player.
May 8 at 11:23am ·
Phil Hickman Jason- I have just posted plenty. Anwser this sir- God actually uses words of contingency for the future. He says "Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way." And even says that He will relent and not bring the disaster He was planning
May 8 at 11:27am ·
Ward Fenley Phil...Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
So, one verse says He will relent if they turn. The other says God does not change His mind. Omniscience doesn't change it's Mind. Notice though. One says he doesn't change His mind. However, the other does not say He did change His mind...but that's beside the point. Because if God knows everything, He cannot change His plans or His mind. That's irrational and illogical. There is a well-known hermeneutic: Interpret the obscure in light of the clear. These statements you see are God speaking in anthropomorphisms--language to suit the insufficiency of man to understand God, much like "God protecting us with His everlasting wings." He isn't a chicken. But He does protect us. Did you read those articles? We have to take the character of God presented clearly in Scripture and interpret passages which seem to contradict. The perspective you are taking diminishes the attribute of God's omniscience. Ours emphasizes it. So we always ask the question: does our doctrine diminish or exalt God's attributes?
Ward
May 8 at 4:39pm ·
Ward Fenley Hi Tamilla, compare:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Acts 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
In every case where the word helkuo is used, it is used in reference to external and active movement. We must ask, why would God drag us? Because "all we like sheep have gone astray..." :) Tamilla, if God didn't drag you and me, we would never come to Him. I am glad He didn't leave it up to my will, for I would certainly perish in my hatred of Him.
May 8 at 4:48pm ·
Ward Fenley Oh, Tamilla, one other thing: Here is Strong's definition:
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.
It is not, as some neo-evangelicals and Arminians suppose, "woo." God doesn't woo. He effectively chooses. That's why the Bible says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." And the most important thing to remember: It's based upon nothing we have done:
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
May 8 at 4:51pm ·
Mike Boswell Tuese - Those are some pretty harsh accusations that you have about "free-willers" (see 4th comment down). How in the world can you throw blanket accusations out like that without even knowing the minds or hearts of those you stereotype and accuse? I am not seeking to make God into my image. I was made in God's image. Could it be that part of God's image that He has given to us is the ability to choose? To have free will? Absolutely. To say that I don't submit to the Scriptures without your knowing what my walk with God is like, what my prayer life is like, or what my actions are like is about as judgmental and arrogant as it gets, Tuese. I know and understand that God hardens whom He hardens and has mercy on whom He has mercy. That's right from Exodus. I have no problem with that. But even that verse IN ITS CONTEXT says nothing about the eternal destination of a man or mankind. In its context it speaks about a season in one man's life (Pharaoh) and decisions he made at one point in time based on a hardened heart. That's it. My Bible is not hole-EEE (which sounds very sarcastic and disrespectful by the way) as you say. I don't claim to have all the answers to the difficult verses, but I don't throw anything out. I have never had any ambition of trying to domesticate God or turn Him into a Santa Claus. What does free will have to do with that accusation? According to the Bible, the creature has no rights except to love one another. So, to claim belief in free will, how is that fighting for rights? And, it does not bother me one bit that God is God and I'm not. Why would it? I'm so glad He's God and I'm not. Your statements only serve to polarize those you are called to love and serve. How are those statements either loving or serving?
So, do you include the likes of Billy Graham, Jack Hayford, AW Tozer, CS Lewis, Chuck Smith, Bill Hybels, Josh McDowell, Ravi Zacharias, or other great thinking, God loving and God-serving "free willers" in your list of accusations? If so, that's pretty stinking arrogant, Tuese. It's one thing to believe that we're wrong on an issue. It's quite another to make dramatic false accusations because we believe differently. Life isn't all black and white. It's mostly color. And, even if we are wrong (which as you know I don't believe), how are your words edifying to us as believers or glorifying to God?
May 8 at 9:39pm ·
Martin Slagle Thank you Mike. :o)
May 9 at 9:21am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
[How in the world can you throw blanket accusations out like that without even knowing the minds or hearts of those you stereotype and accuse?]
**Mike, I do know the minds/hearts by what free willers are teaching.
[Could it be that part of God's image that He has given to us is the ability to choose?] To have free will?]
**Man has a will and makes choices but MAN'S WILL IS NOT FREE. One can't freely will to fly like superman or freely will to not sin, or freely will to turn invisible b/c one's nature limits him or especially COME TO JESUS UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT JESUS ENABLES HIM.
**The hardening passage is from Romans 9 which I look to hear your interpretation.
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
[Hole-EEE bibles}
I have not had a free willer not side step this passage as well as the others I have listed. Please give me your interpretation of free will from this passage.
[I have never had any ambition of trying to domesticate God or turn Him into a Santa Claus. What does free will have to do with that accusation?]
**Free willers are saying something false about God and who He is.
[ According to the Bible, the creature has no rights except to love one another. So, to claim belief in free will, how is that fighting for rights?]
**You're begging the question
[How are those statements either loving or serving?]
**Please forgive me if you were offended. I was showing the logical conclusions of free will theology.
**Billy Graham and the rest just need to be corrected. I'm sure as men of God they would be open and teachable to be shown their error. Just like I would, if you can show me from Scripture.
And brother Martyn, you haven't responded to my 2Peter 3 passage regarding God not wanting any to perish. By not responding are you saying you agree with the interpretation?
May 9 at 10:11am ·
Ward Fenley Hi Mike,
I don't think we have a right to peer into a man's heart who preaches a false gospel. Now, granted, Arminianism is a false gospel. And those who preach it are preaching a false gospel, because it is grace+will which is no different than grace + circumcision (circumcision=will, for to will is to will to be circumcised). Rather, God would justify the heathen through faith. That is, for God's covenant people, He would give them faith and make them willing in order to fulfill the command, "Whosever believeth." And who will believe?
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
"as many as." And Christ said:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
"as many as" Revelation says:
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
So how do we repent?
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God has to grant the repentance. Why? Because we cannot repent unless He grants it:
Jeremiah 31:18-19 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. (19) Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
"after I was turned, I repented." But you say, "We must open our hearts." Actually, again, the Lord has to do that:
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Is faith a gift?
Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, ***the faith which is by him*** hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Now, could God save a person even though someone else's twisting of Scripture? Absolutely. God is more sovereign than wicked preachers. But can turn what evil men spew into the Logos which brings life. God doesn't need English. "It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
But when someone asks me if a person who is preaching a false gospel is saved, I reply, "I don't know. But if Christ died for him, his eternity is secure."
Along the same lines, if a person asks me if an unloving and unmerciful Calvinist is saved, I say, "I don't know, but if Christ didn't die for him, he is certainly condemned already."
But everywhere in Scripture I see Paul affirming the salvation of those who trust in the Lord, not in freewill.
May 9 at 2:19pm ·
Mike Boswell Wow Tuese. I can't believe how arrogant you really are - that you actually think you know my heart and my mind. I had better hopes for you brother. Only God knows the heart, yet you claim to know mine - and all other "free-willers." Pride comes before a fall, my friend.
Remember Jesus' words and woes to the Pharisees who were "experts in the law." Woe to them because of how legalistic they were in the minute details of the law, but failed to exhibit justice with mercy and compassion.
Regarding Romans 9 - It shows how one-tracked you are, Tuese. You and I talked it through when I was with you, but you somehow "forgot." Again, the context of Romans 9-11 has to do with the nation of Israel. Nowhere in that passage does Paul make a generalized statement that God has not given mankind the freedom to choose. And, by the way, of course we can't "will to fly." I'm not dumb. Then on the other hand, man has made all sorts of aircraft.
By the way, Tuese - I have not side-stepped any one of your Scriptures or questions you posed to me. If there have been some that I haven't responded to that met your expectations, that's not my fault. And...I can only respond to so much - in that I am in the midst of planting a new church, working a second job, and trying to be a good husband and father. My life doesn't revolve around this issue, but I care about you. And I care that you and others like Ward have been taken captive by a hollow and deceptive philosophy that you seem to have become obsessed with.
And then your arrogance about all these other great thinkers and servants in the faith - that you know better than they do. Wow. If I had the opportunity, I would love to sit with any one of those guys - even for an hour - and learn from them - as they have walked with Christ much longer than I have and done more for the kingdom than I could ever dream of doing. I wouldn't even think of correcting them.
I have to go now - and I might take time to respond to some of your other shocking statements. But, I have to say Tuese - by your responses and "answers" there is something deeply wrong in your heart. That you are only willing to see people through the lense of your false doctrine. You aren't willing to see past that. You aren't willing to do as Jesus did and see the person that lies on the other side of whatever doctrine you believe. But instead, you lump all "free-willers" who don't think like you into the category of stupid, idolatrous, Santa Claus worshipers.
And yes, I can and will forgive you Tuese. Because you have offended me - and many others. And by the way, your conclusions are not logical - at all.
And Ward - you're the one spreading a false gospel. Not me. Gospel is the good news. What good news is there for someone predestined to hell? The good news is that Jesus died for ALL. It's up to us if we will receive by faith what He desires to give to all.
May 9 at 3:37pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
One can know what a person's heart and mind is like by how they speak. Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So, as free willers speak, one can know their heart and mind on an issue. That's how we discern a person, spirit in light of the Bible.
re: Pharisees. Jesus told them straight up (Matt23), they're going to hell. Did Jesus die for them? Does John 3.16 apply to them?
Are you trying to say b/c I'm teaching doctrine and it doesn't make you feel good
The Romans 9 passage uses specific people Jacob and Esau. And even if it were talking about nations or Israel, nations are made up of individuals. You, too, have biases, especially the fact that you assume man has "free will." You have not proven it from the Bible. You only assumed it and then you go on your rant... Plus, how do you reconcile it with all the passages where God is predestining, ordaining, choosing, electing. Is man free to will against God's election? You're not consistent, Mike.
[And I care that you and others like Ward have been taken captive by a hollow and deceptive philosophy that you seem to have become obsessed with.]
**OH, YOU SEEM TO KNOW MY HEART AND MIND.
re: Great Thinkers
I respect all the men and their ministries. But if they or you are wrong on a point about Scripture, would you want to be corrected.
We don't trust in men no matter how great they are in eyes of people. Remember, they are but men and they will always let us down.
This is why we trust in Scripture alone.
I can easily put up dozens of names, too, that reject free will.
RC Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur, CS Spurgeon, Paul Washer, Albert Mohler, Phil Johnson, Matthew Henry, Mark Driscoll, James Kennedy, James White, J.I. Packer, John Huss, John Gill, James Montgomery Boice, DA Carson, Gary DeMar, BB Warfield, Augustine, Arthur Pink,...
Mike, are you so arrogant to say that these men are teaching deceptive philosophy???
Mike,
So, if you as a pastor are teaching false doctrine wouldn't you want to know? There's tons of false doctrine coming out of pentecostal churches and you know what I mean.
Mike, The Truth of God's Word will always offend a man-centered theology.
My conclusions are not logical b/c The Great Mike Boswell says they're not logical. What kind of argument is that!!!??? Show me from Scripture. Otherwise, I can easily throw back your rants...
MIKE, I BELIEVE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN but just inconsistent in this area.
DO YOU BELIEVE I AM CHRISTIAN?
May 9 at 6:56pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Martin,
Don't think that I forgot about those 2 other dialogs we had. I'm still waiting for your responses
May 9 at 7:06pm ·
Mike Boswell [One can know what a person's heart and mind is like by how they speak. Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So, as free willers speak, one can know their heart and mind on an issue. That's how we discern a person, spirit in light of the Bible.] -Tuese, there is a difference between knowing what a person believes and knowing what is in a person's heart. You know what "free willers" in general believe because of what they teach. That is far different than what Jesus was talking about. Again, look at the context, and don't assume. Each time Jesus taught about "the overflow/abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" He was talking about sinfulness and evil vs. good. There is a major difference between the two. How can you know what my relationship with God is like? How can you know the joys, the pains, the struggles, the faith or lack thereof? How can you know what's confessed before God and what's not? There is a HUGE difference between sin/wickedness and belief about a doctrine. Your statement appears that you don't care about a person's heart, but that you only care about whether they're right or wrong according to your point of view. So, Tuese, you don't know what's in my heart (or anyone else's) beyond what I share with you.
[re: Pharisees. Jesus told them straight up (Matt23), they're going to hell. Did Jesus die for them? Does John 3.16 apply to them? Are you trying to say b/c I'm teaching doctrine and it doesn't make you feel good...] Yes, Jesus died for them. Yes, John 3:16 applies to them. I know you have your own definition for "world" but your definition of it is not the context. It is very possible that not all the Pharisees went to hell. There were Pharisees that came to Christ. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea decided to follow Christ. Paul was a Pharisee and got saved. There were others (see Acts 15:5). And regarding whether I judge doctrine based on whether I feel good or not is about as lame accusation as I've heard. The answer is that it has nothing to do with my feelings. As I have said over and over again, it's about the context of Scripture, not about feelings.
By the way, look at this Scripture (Acts 15:7) “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe." Would you say from this passage that all Gentiles will believe? If not, why not?
[You, too, have biases, especially the fact that you assume man has "free will." You have not proven it from the Bible. You only assumed it and then you go on your rant...Plus, how do you reconcile it with all the passages where God is predestining, ordaining, choosing, electing. Is man free to will against God's election? You're not consistent, Mike.] Tuese, your bias is that you ASSUME that Calvin is right and that man has no free will. So, you read through those lenses. Most of the Bible discusses nothing of predestination. So, reading the vast majority of the Bible in its context speaks left and right, up and down about choices mankind makes apart from God. Choices against God's will. I don't know what "proof" you're looking for - but the evidence is everywhere in Scripture. Some of your other blogger friends have pointed out Scripture as have I, but you haven't responded. You just keep throwing out your ammo and won't deal with what we have given you. And, about reconciling it with all the passages where God is predestining and so forth - how in the world can anyone do it justice on facebook? People write books on these subjects and you expect a thesis to try to undo your belief system? That's nuts! To answer in a brief nutshell, I will say this: God has predestined, chosen, ordained a glorious hope and future for all who choose to receive and follow His Son Jesus.
I still haven't heard from you a sound exegetical response to such Scriptures as 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9.
Regarding great thinkers. Yes, I want to be corrected where I am wrong. I have been corrected by God and by others. I am still learning - I admit that. But so far your "correction" has proven fruitless. And, I know that these great thinkers are mere men, but are we too arrogant that we can learn from them? That we have to correct everybody we disagree with? The men you listed - if I had an hour with them, I would sit and learn all I can from them. They are worthy of respect. Though we may disagree on some thing, I can and would learn much that would enrich my life and my understanding of Scripture, and my walk with God. We trust in Scripture alone as you say. But again, you're trusting in your biases and what other men have said about Scripture more than what the plain text says. There is no way you could believe what you believe apart from the writings of Calvin, Sproul, and others you adhere to. No way that you came up with all this solely on your own reading of Scripture.
[Mike, are you so arrogant to say that these men are teaching deceptive philosophy???] I haven't read all their works, so I'm not going to lump them into a group to answer your question adequately. There may be parts of some of their teachings that are off, you bet. Only Jesus has perfect theology. Not me. Not you. Not them.
[Mike,
So, if you as a pastor are teaching false doctrine wouldn't you want to know? There's tons of false doctrine coming out of pentecostal churches and you know what I mean.] Yes I know what you mean. Some I agree with you on and some I don't (as we discussed at length at your house).
[Mike, The Truth of God's Word will always offend a man-centered theology.] Where's that in Scripture? And again, you assume that belief that a Sovereign God has gifted His creation with free will is man-centered theology. How can you prove that by Scripture? It's only an assumption and an accusation. The name it and claim it teachings are man-centered because greed and materialism are involved. But belief that a Sovereign God gave mankind freedom because of His love? That sounds pretty God-centered to me.
[My conclusions are not logical b/c The Great Mike Boswell says they're not logical. What kind of argument is that!!!??? Show me from Scripture. Otherwise, I can easily throw back your rants...] Number one: I never called myself great, nor do I see myself as great. Number two: you make leaps in many of your conclusions. Instead of A+B=C, many of your conclusions are A+B=G, H, or P. Many of your conclusions are based on your assumptions, not the rules of logic. Take a logic course at SFSU or Fuller (if they offer it) or something.
Tuese, yes I believe you are a Christian because you have chosen to follow Jesus Christ. You, as Romans 10 says, have confessed that Jesus is Lord and belief that God raised Him from the dead. (See next comment).
May 9 at 9:37pm ·
Mike Boswell The trouble is, Tuese, that you only have ears to hear what you want to hear in this regards. You don't want to hear about even the possibility of free will. You have gone so far to the extreme that you have no room for any other possibilities. As soon as you know someone is a freewiller, walls go up. They seem to become an adversary to you - placed in a position of having to argue and debate - instead of someone who you can love, serve, and learn from. It becomes about who's right (you) and who's wrong (everyone who doesn't agree with your perspective) - instead of, "I wonder how I can minister grace to this person's life" or "Jesus set the example of washing feet, "how can I wash my brother's feet."
To be honest (not that I haven't been), and I don't say this in anger at all. But I can't help but wonder if more and more people who come in contact with you see you as the "resounding gong" in 1 Corinthians 13:1 rather than a lover of people as described in verses 4-8. I'm not saying that you're absolutely loveless. But that's how you come across - arguing, accusing, belittling, and graceless with all who believe differently. How many people have you wounded, angered, or isolated yourself from? What good is that?
Jesus showed love and grace even to those who didn't deserve it, rejected Him, or had no interest in following Him. Even those who didn't have it all together theologically.
I don't know what else to say. Except that I hope you one day can see beyond the heartless dogma.
Your friend since high school.
Mike
May 9 at 9:46pm ·
Ward Fenley btw, not sure who wrote this: "And I care that you and others like Ward have been taken captive by a hollow and deceptive philosophy that you seem to have become obsessed with" Because it showed up in my private email but it's not here, and it was in a cut and paste, so I can't figure out who it is. :) Anyway, I don't see what I have posted to this list as hollow and deceptive...just for the record.
May 10 at 5:28am ·
Tuese Ahkiong [How can you know what my relationship with God is like? How can you know the joys, the pains, the struggles, the faith or lack thereof? How can you know what's confessed before God and what's not? There is a HUGE difference between sin/wickedness and belief about a doctrine. Your statement appears that you don't care about a person's heart, but that you only care about whether they're right or wrong according to your point of view. So, Tuese, you don't know what's in my heart (or anyone else's) beyond what I share with you.]
***Mike, we're talking theology and doctrine. If I'm teaching an idolatrous doctrine, I'd want to know.
[And regarding whether I judge doctrine based on whether I feel good or not is about as lame accusation as I've heard. The answer is that it has nothing to do with my feelings. As I have said over and over again, it's about the context of Scripture, not about feelings.]
***Then why are you bringing up these emotional issues of knowing what's in person's heart.
[By the way, look at this Scripture (Acts 15:7) “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe." Would you say from this passage that all Gentiles will believe? If not, why not?]
***NO, B/C OF THE CONTEXT. SEE V8-9, GOD GAVE THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FAITH.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
[Most of the Bible discusses nothing of predestination. So, reading the vast majority of the Bible in its context speaks left and right, up and down about choices mankind makes apart from God. Choices against God's will.]
***Mike, how is it that man can do anything apart from God? Does not God sustain the entire universe including men by the power of His Word?
Did not Jesus state that Judas would do a sinful action and Peter, too, which were choices against God's will, sin?
[Though we may disagree on some thing, I can and would learn much that would enrich my life and my understanding of Scripture, and my walk with God. We trust in Scripture alone as you say. But again, you're trusting in your biases and what other men have said about Scripture more than what the plain text says. There is no way you could believe what you believe apart from the writings of Calvin, Sproul, and others you adhere to. No way that you came up with all this solely on your own reading of Scripture.]
***Did I say that I can't learn from them? You're assuming that. In fact, I have learn much from them.
But you can't learn from Calvinists b/c of your bias. Read the tone of your words. You sound like Reformed people are Antichrists or False teachers. You're probably nodding your head "yes." lol. Mike, it works both ways. We are entrenched with our worldview.
May 10 at 9:13pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong [I haven't read all their works, so I'm not going to lump them into a group to answer your question adequately. There may be parts of some of their teachings that are off, you bet. Only Jesus has perfect theology. Not me. Not you. Not them.]
***Ain't it amazing how Christian men can believe diametrically opposing views?
[Mike, The Truth of God's Word will always offend a man-centered theology.] Where's that in Scripture? And again, you assume that belief that a Sovereign God has gifted His creation with free will is man-centered theology. How can you prove that by Scripture? It's only an assumption and an accusation. The name it and claim it teachings are man-centered because greed and materialism are involved. But belief that a Sovereign God gave mankind freedom because of His love? That sounds pretty God-centered to me. ]
***Mike, you have been totally offended by the tons of Scripture I've posted. Here's just a few again:
. John 5:21. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life TO WHOM HE WISHES
. John 6:37-39 All that the FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
. John 6:44 "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, and I will raise him up at the last day.
. John 6:64-65 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER HAS ENABLED HIM."
THESE VERSES SHOW MAN'S INABILITY TO COME TO JESUS. What do you say Mike?
CAN A PERSON COME TO JESUS APART FROM GOD THE FATHER ENABLING THAT PERSON AND GIVING THAT PERSON TO JESUS? If you answer "yes" you have a man-centered theology.
[Many of your conclusions are based on your assumptions, not the rules of logic. Take a logic course at SFSU or Fuller (if they offer it) or something.]
Mike, I've taken 3 Logic courses and one under your favorite pastor theologian, R.C. Sproul. Yay!!!!
-We just have different worldviews on soteriology and eschatology and probably the charismatic gifts.
I'M GLAD GOD HAS PREDESTINED OUR CONVERSATIONS. I THINK IT'S SHARPENING US.
May 10 at 9:32pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Here are the verses that God has not made salvation available to all, in fact, He has predestined some to destruction:
1. 1 Peter 2:7-9 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” THEY STUMBLE, BEING DISOBEDIENT TO THE WORD, TO WHICH THEY ALSO WERE APPOINTED. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2. 2 Peter 2:10-13. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, BORN TO BE CAUGHT AND DESTROYED, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
3. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, WHO WERE BEFORE OF OLD ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Jude 1:11-13 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom IS RESERVED THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS FOREVER.
5. 2 Thess 1.6-9 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8HE WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. 9THEY WILL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION AND SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER 10ON THE DAY HE COMES TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS HOLY PEOPLE AND TO BE MARVELED AT AMONG ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
6. 2 Thess 2:11-13 And for this reason GOD WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE, 12 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE CONDEMNED WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because GOD FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSE YOU FOR SALVATION through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
7. Rom 11:5-10 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY.” 9 AND DAVID SAYS: “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RECOMPENSE TO THEM. 10 LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED, SO THAT THEY DO NOT SEE, AND BOW DOWN THEIR BACK ALWAYS.”
8. Revelation 17:8,17 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 17 “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
9. Matthew 11:21-27 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 “But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 “And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 “But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.” 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that YOU HAVE HIDDEN THESE THINGS FROM THE WISE AND PRUDENT and have revealed them to babes. 26 “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, AND THE ONE TO WHOM THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM.
10. Matthew 13 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT HAS NOT BEEN GRANTED. 12”For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13”Therefore I speak to them in parables; because WHILE SEEING THEY DO NOT SEE, AND WHILE HEARING THEY DO NOT HEAR, NOR DO THEY UNDERSTAND. 14”In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
16”But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17”For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
11. Mark 4:11-12 11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
12. John 6:63-66 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
13. John 12:37-41 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HARDENED THEIR HEARTS, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him
May 11 at 3:12pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong ”Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. ’Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 2 Samuel 12:11-12
WAS ABSALOM FREE NOT TO FORNICATE/COMMIT ADULTERY WITH DAVID'S CONCUBINES/WIVES?
May 7 at 12:19pm · Comment · Like
Sandy Merimee likes this.
Tuese Ahkiong DOES GOD CARE ABOUT MAN'S SUPPOSED FREE WILL?
How do free willers interpret these kinds of passages? I've listed over 400 similar verses on my NOTES. How do you reconcile passages that God ordains, chooses, predestines, elects, foreknows with man's supposed "free will?" BTW, please define "free will."
May 7 at 12:31pm ·
Sandy Merimee You are one tough cookie!Amen!
May 7 at 2:44pm ·
Chris Harrold Was Adam free to sin?
May 8 at 2:45am ·
Tuese Ahkiong C,
Free from God's ordination/predestination of all things? No.
see Rom 8:29-, Eph 1, Ps 139.16,
May 8 at 8:02am ·
Luis Carlos Alvarez The sovereignty of God should be able to be explained where God is not the root cause of evil. That is, where God's moral will was for Adam not to sin, yet His sovereign will was for Adam to sin? "For who can resist His will?" So the conclusion to that is: God's two wills were in contradiction, but God in His sovereign will, effectively caused Adam to sin. I already have trouble in dealing with God contradicting himself and then the conclusion that God desired evil is another issue in itself. Now there is a problem in explaining those "Calvinistic pillar" verses to a free-willer, but how does a Calvinist interpret passages such as this? This can be stated as one of the Arminian pillars
1 Tim. 2:3-6 - This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time..
Now the context is that petitions made on behalf of Kings and men to God by prayer is good. A calvinist might say well, when God states all men," he really defines it differently than what it is stating".Perhaps Perhaps this may be your view, but here's the grand issue to me, why does a Calvinist have to interpret passages like these in some symbolic sense when the passage clearly states all men. So if calvinists are free to interpret the verses in that way, that is symbolically, then why can't an Arminian interpret predestination in a symbolic sense of God's foreknowledge about mans choice? I'm not an Arminian or a Calvinist, and I'm struggling through this but I don't like the idea of looking at scripture through a prescribed set of lens of what I already believe, and it is in a very much Arminian view, but hey I could be wrong, and I don't deny that but I don't like using confirmation bias to support my thoughts and not taking the full weight of scripture.
May 8 at 8:19am ·
Mike Boswell Who knows for sure whether or not Absalom was free to not sin? I think he was free to not sin. David had many other sons through whom this judgment could have come. God didn't say specifically that it would be through Absalom. Absalom happened to be the one through whom it was fulfilled - because of choices he made. I agree with Luis that there is a major problem with the idea that a holy God would cause men to sin - whether it's Adam or Absalom. God is not the author of sin, nor is He the author of confusion or rebellion. Look at what James 1:13-15 says: When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
If God does not tempt anyone, then how could one say that He causes us to sin? Rather, sin - as James clearly says - begins in the heart of man, with his OWN evil desire. Too many Christians blame the devil for their sin. Now are we going to blame God for our sin? That's ludicrous - especially in the light of James 1.
May 8 at 8:40am ·
Mike Boswell Chris, Adam was free. Look at my comment above, specifically James 1:13-15. God does not tempt anyone, but we are tempted by our own evil desires. Pretty clear. Adam was not predestined to sin.
May 8 at 8:43am ·
Chris Harrold Tuese, thank for conceding this point that Adam was free to sin. If we are to work any definition of "free will," Adam's choice should be a part of it.
We must clearly affirm that God himself did not sin, and God is not to be blamed for sin. It was man who sinned, and it was angels who sinned, and in both cases they did so by willful, voluntary choice. To blame God for sin would be blasphemy against the character of God. "His work is perfect; for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he." (Duet 32:4) Abraham asks with tuth and force in his words, "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen. 18:25). And Elihu rightly says, "Far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong." (Job 34:10) In fact, it is impossible for God even to desire to do wrong: "God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one." (James 1:13)
If God can not tempt anyone, than Eve's temptation was by an entity with volition and will outside of God, something with its own distinct will.
Moses naturally believed in free will. He exhibited it when he debated/argued/conversed with God.(Exodus 33:5 24:12-14)
Why was he so angry when he came off the mountain, and found the people singing and dancing around the golden calf. They had exhibited their will against Gods.
Why did God give commandments to Moses if the Israelites did not have the free choice to follow them?
And at the end of Deuteronomy (29) why did Moses lay out a blessing for obedience and curse for obedience to the nation of Israel?
Tuese, as a brother of Christ i hold you in the highest regard, especially your zeal for the Lord, and i agree with God's ordination of everything, and allow for the contradiction of the 2. I hope our time working together at skyline shows that.
May 8 at 12:20pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Chris,
What do you mean by concede? My sentence was a question followed by a NO:
"Free from God's ordination/predestination of all things? No."
So, what do you mean by concede?
I mean God ordains/predestines all the actions of the creature; good (see Eph 2.10) or evil (see verse above) and He is not to be blamed. The creature is to blame for its actions that it willfully made.
What do you mean?
May 8 at 11:39pm ·
Chris Harrold i guess i interpreted your "C," as a spanish yes, but now reading it i see u were addressing the following to me.
May 9 at 1:53am ·
Tuese Ahkiong C,
You looked like you were ready to chop my head off, hmmm?
May 9 at 6:41pm ·
Chris Harrold Tuese, in these text based conversations it is so hard to convey intonation. I mean u no ill will, and wish only to challenge and debate.
I believe man has free will and i believe God ordains and predestines all things, and where those two meet, overlap, conflict, i don't know and i don't think we will know this side of heaven. If the issue were a line spectrum, with predestination on one side and free will on the other, the answer is found not a compromise in the middle but somewhere off the line. How do i allow for this contradiction? As we can't put God in a box and fully understand him outside of what he has revealed to us about himself, so we can't fully understand how he interacts in his creation. Can God impose himself upon man's free will? Sure, we see examples of him doing this through the old testament. Is this an exception or status quo, i don't know, and i don't think we can. I believe God chooses to limit himself to allow man to choose, and i still think God is sovereign when he is in control of every factor outside of man's choice.
Is it possible for man to have free will and God to be sovereign at the same time? My opinion, is yes. Can God work any choices we make into his ultimate plan, sure. I see it as a debate of cause and effect, a procession of linear time, cause and then effect. But how does that work for a God who is outside of time? And what about him knowing the consequence of your choice even before you make it. Does that mean he has made the choice for you? no.
How does predestination allow for the problem of Evil? If God predestines and ordains all things then he causes evil, which is outside of his revealed character. Also, every man who sins is not to blame for sins. God ordained for him to do it.
Why would God exhort us to be Holy, because He is Holy? Shouldn't he just ordain us to be Holy?
And lastly, if free will is just an illusion, why is God presenting to you and alternative opinion through me. If i am a robot and saying only what i have been programmed, my words have been given to me by God. Should you agree or disagree with God's words?
May 10 at 1:38am ·
Mike Boswell Christ, very well put!
May 10 at 8:21am ·
Luis Carlos Alvarez "Perhaps God ordered the universe in such a way that man's free choices accomplish God's ends. However, to deny man's free will means that all real choices only belong to God - including the choice to sin."
Source
: http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi037.asp
May 10 at 10:27pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Luis,
Thanks for your comment but do you know what you're getting into? lol.
Can you define "free will?"
["Perhaps God ordered the universe in such a way that man's free choices accomplish God's ends.]
***Hmmm, God ordering, yes; man, free?
1. Rom 8:28-30 And we know that God causes ALL THINGS to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He PREDESTINED, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
2. Eph 1:11 IN HIM WE WERE ALSO CHOSEN, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PLAN OF HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING IN CONFORMITY WITH THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL,
3. Colossians 1:16-17, 20 For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created through Him and FOR HIM. 17 And He is before ALL THINGS, and in Him ALL THINGS consist. 20 and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
4. Acts 17:26, “AND HE MADE FROM ONE, EVERY NATION OF MANKIND TO LIVE ON ALL THE FACE OF THE EARTH, HAVING DETERMINED THEIR APPOINTED TIMES, AND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR HABITATION,”
5. Psalms 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE.
[However, to deny man's free will means that all real choices only belong to God - including the choice to sin."]
***Says who?
Was Judas free not to betray/sin against Jesus?
Was Peter free not to deny/sin against Jesus?
Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23THIS MAN WAS HANDED OVER TO YOU BY GOD'S SET PURPOSE AND FOREKNOWLEDGE; AND YOU, WITH THE HELP OF WICKED MEN, PUT HIM TO DEATH BY NAILING HIM TO THE CROSS.
Acts 4:25-28 "who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the LORD and against His Christ.' 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, BOTH HEROD AND PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES AND THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, WERE GATHERED TOGETHER 28 "TO DO WHATEVER YOUR HAND AND YOUR PURPOSE DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE.
WHO ULTIMATELY KILLED JESUS?
GOD
WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EVIL?
the creature, man.
God ordains everything that happens but is never to be blamed for evil. Man chooses to sin and is to be blamed.
May 10 at 10:48pm ·
Luis Carlos Alvarez I can, but it would be extremely uninformed and I don't want to define it on terms of my own "feelings" about it. Forget I said anything... haha
May 10 at 11:41pm ·
WAS ABSALOM FREE NOT TO FORNICATE/COMMIT ADULTERY WITH DAVID'S CONCUBINES/WIVES?
May 7 at 12:19pm · Comment · Like
Sandy Merimee likes this.
Tuese Ahkiong DOES GOD CARE ABOUT MAN'S SUPPOSED FREE WILL?
How do free willers interpret these kinds of passages? I've listed over 400 similar verses on my NOTES. How do you reconcile passages that God ordains, chooses, predestines, elects, foreknows with man's supposed "free will?" BTW, please define "free will."
May 7 at 12:31pm ·
Sandy Merimee You are one tough cookie!Amen!
May 7 at 2:44pm ·
Chris Harrold Was Adam free to sin?
May 8 at 2:45am ·
Tuese Ahkiong C,
Free from God's ordination/predestination of all things? No.
see Rom 8:29-, Eph 1, Ps 139.16,
May 8 at 8:02am ·
Luis Carlos Alvarez The sovereignty of God should be able to be explained where God is not the root cause of evil. That is, where God's moral will was for Adam not to sin, yet His sovereign will was for Adam to sin? "For who can resist His will?" So the conclusion to that is: God's two wills were in contradiction, but God in His sovereign will, effectively caused Adam to sin. I already have trouble in dealing with God contradicting himself and then the conclusion that God desired evil is another issue in itself. Now there is a problem in explaining those "Calvinistic pillar" verses to a free-willer, but how does a Calvinist interpret passages such as this? This can be stated as one of the Arminian pillars
1 Tim. 2:3-6 - This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time..
Now the context is that petitions made on behalf of Kings and men to God by prayer is good. A calvinist might say well, when God states all men," he really defines it differently than what it is stating".Perhaps Perhaps this may be your view, but here's the grand issue to me, why does a Calvinist have to interpret passages like these in some symbolic sense when the passage clearly states all men. So if calvinists are free to interpret the verses in that way, that is symbolically, then why can't an Arminian interpret predestination in a symbolic sense of God's foreknowledge about mans choice? I'm not an Arminian or a Calvinist, and I'm struggling through this but I don't like the idea of looking at scripture through a prescribed set of lens of what I already believe, and it is in a very much Arminian view, but hey I could be wrong, and I don't deny that but I don't like using confirmation bias to support my thoughts and not taking the full weight of scripture.
May 8 at 8:19am ·
Mike Boswell Who knows for sure whether or not Absalom was free to not sin? I think he was free to not sin. David had many other sons through whom this judgment could have come. God didn't say specifically that it would be through Absalom. Absalom happened to be the one through whom it was fulfilled - because of choices he made. I agree with Luis that there is a major problem with the idea that a holy God would cause men to sin - whether it's Adam or Absalom. God is not the author of sin, nor is He the author of confusion or rebellion. Look at what James 1:13-15 says: When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
If God does not tempt anyone, then how could one say that He causes us to sin? Rather, sin - as James clearly says - begins in the heart of man, with his OWN evil desire. Too many Christians blame the devil for their sin. Now are we going to blame God for our sin? That's ludicrous - especially in the light of James 1.
May 8 at 8:40am ·
Mike Boswell Chris, Adam was free. Look at my comment above, specifically James 1:13-15. God does not tempt anyone, but we are tempted by our own evil desires. Pretty clear. Adam was not predestined to sin.
May 8 at 8:43am ·
Chris Harrold Tuese, thank for conceding this point that Adam was free to sin. If we are to work any definition of "free will," Adam's choice should be a part of it.
We must clearly affirm that God himself did not sin, and God is not to be blamed for sin. It was man who sinned, and it was angels who sinned, and in both cases they did so by willful, voluntary choice. To blame God for sin would be blasphemy against the character of God. "His work is perfect; for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he." (Duet 32:4) Abraham asks with tuth and force in his words, "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen. 18:25). And Elihu rightly says, "Far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong." (Job 34:10) In fact, it is impossible for God even to desire to do wrong: "God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one." (James 1:13)
If God can not tempt anyone, than Eve's temptation was by an entity with volition and will outside of God, something with its own distinct will.
Moses naturally believed in free will. He exhibited it when he debated/argued/conversed with God.(Exodus 33:5 24:12-14)
Why was he so angry when he came off the mountain, and found the people singing and dancing around the golden calf. They had exhibited their will against Gods.
Why did God give commandments to Moses if the Israelites did not have the free choice to follow them?
And at the end of Deuteronomy (29) why did Moses lay out a blessing for obedience and curse for obedience to the nation of Israel?
Tuese, as a brother of Christ i hold you in the highest regard, especially your zeal for the Lord, and i agree with God's ordination of everything, and allow for the contradiction of the 2. I hope our time working together at skyline shows that.
May 8 at 12:20pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Chris,
What do you mean by concede? My sentence was a question followed by a NO:
"Free from God's ordination/predestination of all things? No."
So, what do you mean by concede?
I mean God ordains/predestines all the actions of the creature; good (see Eph 2.10) or evil (see verse above) and He is not to be blamed. The creature is to blame for its actions that it willfully made.
What do you mean?
May 8 at 11:39pm ·
Chris Harrold i guess i interpreted your "C," as a spanish yes, but now reading it i see u were addressing the following to me.
May 9 at 1:53am ·
Tuese Ahkiong C,
You looked like you were ready to chop my head off, hmmm?
May 9 at 6:41pm ·
Chris Harrold Tuese, in these text based conversations it is so hard to convey intonation. I mean u no ill will, and wish only to challenge and debate.
I believe man has free will and i believe God ordains and predestines all things, and where those two meet, overlap, conflict, i don't know and i don't think we will know this side of heaven. If the issue were a line spectrum, with predestination on one side and free will on the other, the answer is found not a compromise in the middle but somewhere off the line. How do i allow for this contradiction? As we can't put God in a box and fully understand him outside of what he has revealed to us about himself, so we can't fully understand how he interacts in his creation. Can God impose himself upon man's free will? Sure, we see examples of him doing this through the old testament. Is this an exception or status quo, i don't know, and i don't think we can. I believe God chooses to limit himself to allow man to choose, and i still think God is sovereign when he is in control of every factor outside of man's choice.
Is it possible for man to have free will and God to be sovereign at the same time? My opinion, is yes. Can God work any choices we make into his ultimate plan, sure. I see it as a debate of cause and effect, a procession of linear time, cause and then effect. But how does that work for a God who is outside of time? And what about him knowing the consequence of your choice even before you make it. Does that mean he has made the choice for you? no.
How does predestination allow for the problem of Evil? If God predestines and ordains all things then he causes evil, which is outside of his revealed character. Also, every man who sins is not to blame for sins. God ordained for him to do it.
Why would God exhort us to be Holy, because He is Holy? Shouldn't he just ordain us to be Holy?
And lastly, if free will is just an illusion, why is God presenting to you and alternative opinion through me. If i am a robot and saying only what i have been programmed, my words have been given to me by God. Should you agree or disagree with God's words?
May 10 at 1:38am ·
Mike Boswell Christ, very well put!
May 10 at 8:21am ·
Luis Carlos Alvarez "Perhaps God ordered the universe in such a way that man's free choices accomplish God's ends. However, to deny man's free will means that all real choices only belong to God - including the choice to sin."
Source
: http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi037.asp
May 10 at 10:27pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Luis,
Thanks for your comment but do you know what you're getting into? lol.
Can you define "free will?"
["Perhaps God ordered the universe in such a way that man's free choices accomplish God's ends.]
***Hmmm, God ordering, yes; man, free?
1. Rom 8:28-30 And we know that God causes ALL THINGS to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He PREDESTINED, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
2. Eph 1:11 IN HIM WE WERE ALSO CHOSEN, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PLAN OF HIM WHO WORKS OUT EVERYTHING IN CONFORMITY WITH THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL,
3. Colossians 1:16-17, 20 For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created through Him and FOR HIM. 17 And He is before ALL THINGS, and in Him ALL THINGS consist. 20 and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
4. Acts 17:26, “AND HE MADE FROM ONE, EVERY NATION OF MANKIND TO LIVE ON ALL THE FACE OF THE EARTH, HAVING DETERMINED THEIR APPOINTED TIMES, AND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR HABITATION,”
5. Psalms 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE.
[However, to deny man's free will means that all real choices only belong to God - including the choice to sin."]
***Says who?
Was Judas free not to betray/sin against Jesus?
Was Peter free not to deny/sin against Jesus?
Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23THIS MAN WAS HANDED OVER TO YOU BY GOD'S SET PURPOSE AND FOREKNOWLEDGE; AND YOU, WITH THE HELP OF WICKED MEN, PUT HIM TO DEATH BY NAILING HIM TO THE CROSS.
Acts 4:25-28 "who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the LORD and against His Christ.' 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, BOTH HEROD AND PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES AND THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, WERE GATHERED TOGETHER 28 "TO DO WHATEVER YOUR HAND AND YOUR PURPOSE DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE.
WHO ULTIMATELY KILLED JESUS?
GOD
WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EVIL?
the creature, man.
God ordains everything that happens but is never to be blamed for evil. Man chooses to sin and is to be blamed.
May 10 at 10:48pm ·
Luis Carlos Alvarez I can, but it would be extremely uninformed and I don't want to define it on terms of my own "feelings" about it. Forget I said anything... haha
May 10 at 11:41pm ·
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