Tuesday, September 9, 2014

Freewill doctrine: what does it? It magnifies man into God; it declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they can't be carried...

Freewill doctrine: what does it? It magnifies man into God; it declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they can't be carried...

May 16, 2010 at 11:16pm
Tuese Ahkiong Freewill doctrine: what does it? It magnifies man into God; it declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they can't be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man & the covenant of grace dependent upon human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners, so that if He gives grace to one He is bound to do so to all. Spurgeon
May 3 at 10:23pm · Comment · Like
Sandy Merimee and Kevin Mathis like this.

Herson Cruz You know, this has been the third time I've seen this quote posted today :)
May 3 at 10:29pm ·

Tuese Ahkiong just getting the word out.
May 3 at 10:29pm ·

Herson Cruz Amen on that.
May 3 at 10:32pm ·

Bryan Maddox Free Will vs. God's Will is really a debate on Chaos vs. Robots. - Neither of work in the real world. The Bible very clearly supports both positions, which is why there is a debate in the first place.
May 4 at 12:23am ·

Galen Sterling-Smith lol, Bryan, I like your analogy, "Chaos vs Robots."
May 4 at 12:36am ·

Lucy Cabrera God gave us the gift of wisdom over right and wrong.... still He is always giving us the grace to do our own "freewill".........
May 4 at 2:25am ·

Tuese Ahkiong For all you freewillies, please interpret the following passage.

Romans 9:14-18
4What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses,"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then IT DEPENDS NOT ON HUMAN WILL or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18SO THEN HE HAS MERCY ON WHOMEVER HE WILLS, AND HE HARDENS WHOMEVER HE WILLS.
May 4 at 7:16am ·

Kevin Mathis Amen.
May 4 at 7:33am ·

Galen Sterling-Smith If you're going to Disneyland and the directions say take the 5 but you decided to take 101 and go the long way, did God preordain you taking the wrong directions or did you choose the wrong directions on the way to the place you're preordained to go? You'll end up there one way or another, right?

Even if/though God knows when/where/how/why you'll go/end up somewhere, does that mean He's mechanically driving us to that place or does He just KNOW, when/how/why we'll get where we're going?

Also, this verse, to me, speaks about God's mercy, not man's choices. If God wants to have mercy on someone, He will. If he doesn't, He won't. We all have a purpose and I believe part of the human condition is getting wise to that purpose and following it asap. Jonah had a purpose but he tried to run. Didn't work so well for him but he tried. He still ended up where he was supposed to go.
May 4 at 9:13am ·

Galen Sterling-Smith It's like David's situation with Bathsheba. He screwed up, admitted it and asked for God's mercy on the baby. God said, "Nope" and that was that. God could've shown mercy if He wanted to but in this situation, He didn't. In others, He did.
May 4 at 9:21am ·

Timothy Cheng i don't think God would control us like robots. so i think God knows who will be saved and who won't. but the believing and receiving is the choice that He gave us. that's just what i think.
May 4 at 5:38pm ·

Bryan Maddox I must also point out an ability of God not really discussed - and that is His right to exercise His abilities and powers. Yes, God has the ability to do do all kinds of things, but He doesn't have to do them all of the time. Even Jesus said that He left some of His attributes an knowledge with God the Father. He also had the ability (at any time) to take them up again. What I'm saying is that yes, God can control us, but that doesn't mean He has to do that all of the time. Also, this whole thing about sending the Holy Spirit to help us, how does that fit in if God is already (and always) directly controlling us like robots?

In the big picture, we find that the Bible is written in at least 2 viewpoints - in human and spiritual views - sometimes at the same time. I suspect the reason for this is that the message of the Bible is simple and beautiful, but the concepts are incredibly hard to grasp - something that the Holy Spirit by and large helps God's children with understanding.
May 4 at 6:19pm ·

Timothy Cheng I agree. I heard an analogy that two parallel lines will never meet in this finite world, but maybe in infinity they will. But we'll never know because we have finite minds. So things like this, we may never reach an agreement, but that's alright as long as we don't get divide amongst ourselves.
May 4 at 6:33pm ·

Tuese Ahkiong Ok young men,
Let's keep the dialog going. This is how we sharpen each other. And PLEASE USE SCRIPTURE AND NOT YOUR TRADITIONS AND PERSONAL IDEAS.
1)So, to what degree is the will of man free from God?
2)Was Peter free not to deny Jesus?
3)Was Judas free not to betray Jesus?

4)Are there people who are able to come to Jesus if the Father does not draw him? John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

5)NOT ROBOTS BUT CLAY POTS and NOT CHAOS BUT A PURPOSEFUL POTTER Romans 9:19-24
19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man to answer back to God?( Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 HAS THE POTTER NO RIGHT OVER THE CLAY, TO MAKE OUT OF THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR DISHONORABLE USE? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

6) Someone mentioned John 3:16 and the whosoever. btw, the whosoever ain't there but let me give you another John passage.
John 17:9 I (Jesus) pray for them (believers). I AM NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR WHOSOEVER TO COME TO JESUS (WITHOUT THE FATHER DRAWING him) and without Jesus praying for him?

7) explain these verses on the will of man:
• Ps 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE.
• Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, BUT THE ANSWER OF THE TONGUE IS FROM THE LORD.
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL.
• Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, BUT THE LORD DIRECTS HIS STEPS.
• Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, BUT THE COUNSEL OF THE LORD WILL STAND.
• Proverbs 20:24 MAN'S STEPS ARE ORDAINED BY THE LORD, HOW THEN CAN MAN UNDERSTAND HIS WAY?
• Isaiah 63:17 WHY, O LORD, DO YOU MAKE US WANDER FROM YOUR WAYS AND HARDEN OUR HEARTS SO WE DO NOT REVERE YOU? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
• 77. Jer10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, NOR IS IT IN A MAN WHO WALKS TO DIRECT HIS STEPS.
• 78. Lamentations 3:37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, UNLESS THE LORD HAS COMMANDED IT?
May 4 at 7:58pm ·

Tuese Ahkiong
Acts 17:28'For in him WE LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING…

Colossians 1:16-17,For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Job 12:10 IN HIS HAND is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.

ROM 11: 33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!



How unsearchable his judgments,



and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?



Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,



that God should repay him?"[k]
36FOR FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

ARE NOT ALL THINGS LIVING AND MOVING FOR HIM, FROM HIM THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM FOR GOD’S GLORY?
AGAIN, TO WHAT DEGREE IS THE WILL OF THE CREATURE FREE FROM GOD?
May 4 at 8:19pm ·

Timothy Cheng Well, I needed to get some help from my parents. But how about 1 Timothy 2:3-6. Jesus died for us all. If God's will was to only draw and save only certain people, then why would Jesus die for us all? God is all-powerful, so He could just draw us to Him. You just said that we are living and moving for His glory. He could just save us and then what glory would that bring to Him? With us going to Him, it brings Him the glory and honor. (This next portion was suggested by someone that knows a bit more than me) Look at Israelites. God, in the Old Testament, repeatedly called and tried to draw the closer to Him. But eventually they didn't and had to bear the consequences. Does that mean God failed? No. Because He is all powerful and He could've, but because the Israelites were not willing, God did not force it upon them. Then one might say that God hardened their heart. But that would be contradictory to what the prophets said in the Major and Minor prophet books. They kept urging the Israelites to return and repent. So to conclude, God has a plan and His will is definitely greater than ours. But yet, from this, I think that God gives us a choice, so that we may willingly bring Him the glory. Yea, I'm still learning and trying to figure things out. But the whole idea that God is controlling us like a video game doesn't seem quite like the God I know. But I'm still a young Christian and I don't know much, so if I'm not making any sense, sorry.
May 4 at 8:50pm ·

Tuese Ahkiong Hey Tim,
I'm impressed with your interest in these deep truths. Most Christian adults I speak with would rather not talk about these topics. So, hurray for Tim!

[ Well, I needed to get some help from my parents. But how about 1 Timothy 2:3-6. Jesus died for us all. If God's will was to only draw and save only certain people, then why would Jesus die for us all? ]

1 Tim 2:1-7 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL PEOPLE, 2 for kings and ALL who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom FOR ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Answer: “all” (Greek pas) in Scripture does not necessarily mean every person on the face of the earth. (Matthew 3:5, 10:22; John 3:26; Colossians 1:23) Paul uses the word 22 other times in 1 Timothy and in many of these references it does not refer to “all existing examples of” something but rather “all kinds of” something or some other meaning (1 Timothy 1:15, 2:1-2, 6, 8, 11, 3:4, 11, 4:4, 8-10, 15, 5:2, 10, 20, 6:1, 10, 13, 17).
Particularly pertinent is 6:10, “For the love of money is the root of all evil” (KJV). Money was not the “root” of Satan’s rebellion or the Fall of Adam and Eve, or many other sins. However, money is “a root of all kinds of evil” (NKJV; note: There is no definitive article “the” in the Greek).
Similarly “all” in 1 Timothy 2:4 does not refer to every person who has or will live. It refers to all kinds of people as opposed to only Jews (Matthew 13:47; Acts 10:34, 11:18; Revelation 5:9).
Moreover, if God wanted every person to be saved, then everyone would be saved since His will always comes to pass. (Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 33:10, 115:3, 135:6) But the Bible clearly teaches some will be damned (Matthew 25:26; Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8). –by Rolant Mackenzie

If Jesus acted as every single individuals mediator and ransom, shouldn’t every person that’s ever lived be in heaven?

[God is all-powerful, so He could just draw us to Him.]
**Who is the “us” you are talking about? Christians? Or Christians and non-Christians? And yes, God just draws us, Christians to Himself.

[You just said that we are living and moving for His glory. He could just save us and then what glory would that bring to Him? With us going to Him, it brings Him the glory and honor.]
**He does save us (Christians, elect from the foundation of the world) and it is glorious because God says it is. Yes, you are “going to Him” via repenting and trusting Jesus only because God first loved you, sent Jesus to die specifically for you, gave you specifically His Holy Spirit by which you call God your Abba Father, and has given you to Jesus (John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.)

[ (This next portion was suggested by someone that knows a bit more than me) Look at Israelites. God, in the Old Testament, repeatedly called and tried to draw the closer to Him. But eventually they didn't and had to bear the consequences. Does that mean God failed? No. Because He is all powerful and He could've, but because the Israelites were not willing, God did not force it upon them. Then one might say that God hardened their heart. But that would be contradictory to what the prophets said in the Major and Minor prophet books. They kept urging the Israelites to return and repent. So to conclude, God has a plan and His will is definitely greater than ours.
**Your above words are a little confusing but maybe these verses may help.
1. Exodus 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
2. Exodus 4:21 "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
3. Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt,
4. Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
5. Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them
6. Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
7. Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Is it wrong to harden your heart against God?
Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart?

[But yet, from this, I think that God gives us a choice, so that we may willingly bring Him the glory. Yea, I'm still learning and trying to figure things out. But the whole idea that God is controlling us like a video game doesn't seem quite like the God I know.]
**Again, to what extent is man free from God?

[But I'm still a young Christian and I don't know much, so if I'm not making any sense, sorry.]
**Timothy, I think you’re doing a great job of being a student of your faith. Amen.
May 5 at 12:54am ·

Tuese Ahkiong Brian,
What happened to your posts?
May 5 at 8:16am ·

Tuese Ahkiong 1. Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IN THE BOOK OF LIFE of the Lamb who has been slain.
2. Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
3. Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
4. Revelation 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only THOSE WHOSE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE
LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE.

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THE CREATURE TO FREE WILL HIMSELF INTO THE BOOK OF LIFE?
May 5 at 8:31am ·

Tuese Ahkiong Eph 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 2:13-14 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2Tim1:9who has saved us and called us to a holy life not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THE CREATURE TO FREE WILL HIMSELF INTO CHRIST, SALVATION, GRACE???
May 5 at 8:32am ·

Galen Sterling-Smith I had a response/question, but we talked about it in the room, :-)
May 5 at 11:04am ·

Tuese Ahkiong Just a side note, how many times have each of you read through the entire Bible?
May 5 at 9:14pm ·

Tuese Ahkiong Luke 12:6-7 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
GOD IS SO IN CONTROL OF HIS CREATION THAT HE IS AWARE OF EVERY SPARROW AND EVERY HAIR ON A PERSON’S HEAD.

Isaiah 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
WHO IS MAKING WHO DO WHAT IN THIS VERSE?

Judges 14:1-4 1Then Samson went down to Timnah and saw a woman in Timnah, one of the daughters of the Philistines. 2So he came back and told his father and mother, "I saw a woman in Timnah, one of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife." 3Then his father and his mother said to him, "Is there no woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?" But Samson said to his father, "Get her for me, for she looks good to me." 4However, his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. Now at that time the Philistines were ruling over Israel.
IS GOD HOOKING SAMSON UP WITH A PHILISTINE HOTTIE IN ORDER TO THROW DOWN WITH THE PHILISTINES?

Ps 139:1-6 O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. 2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. 4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. 5 You hem me in—behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
WHO IS IN CONTROL OF RULERS. ONE CAN ALSO ARGUE FROM THE GREATER (THE KING) TO THE LESSER (THE COMMON PERSON) THAT GOD TURNS THE AVERAGE JOE WHEREVER HE WISHES.
May 5 at 10:32pm ·

Jason Bradfield The word "choice" is not synonymous with the philosophical idea of "free choice" or "free will". The bible teaches "will", not "free will".

Furthermore, there is nothing contradictory between "God predetermined our choices" and "we make choices" once one understands that "choice" is not "free" from the decrees of God.
May 7 at 6:04pm ·

Galen Sterling-Smith What Jason said. Especially that "Choice is not free of God's will." That's what I've been trying to get at. I understand God is in control, but why would the word "choice" even exist if there was no such thing?
May 8 at 1:21am ·

Jason Bradfield Galen, I believe however that the reason God knows what we will choose is because he determined our choices; we won't do differently. What some people suggest reduces God to a palm reader looking into the crystal ball; i.e., he knows because he looked into the future. Such a view is problematic because it implies that God had to learn something.

The reason God knows what we will do is because we do exactly what he caused for us to do. The fall of man was planned; not something free of God's causation that he just happen to know about because he sees the future. God causes evil.
May 8 at 1:48am ·

Galen Sterling-Smith So then what is sin? If God causes evil, God ordains evil, God is sovereign over sin, is sin then disobedience or obedience to God's ordained evil?
May 8 at 2:57am ·

Jason Bradfield Sin is disobedience to God's revealed commands.
May 8 at 7:02am ·

Galen Sterling-Smith But how can there be disobedience when God controls everything? If we have no choices because God makes them for us, how can their be disobedience unless God is making us disobey Him?
May 8 at 1:48pm ·

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