Tuese: March 2011

Tuese Ahkiong

has introduced a couple more people to Preterism and one has gone zonkers excited and the other is at least partial.
In fact, he gets to teach a church on eschatology later this month. Yay!!!
He's also been invited to fire up the troops at Skyline College's Christian Club with God's Word.
As much as he loves poetry/music, knowing God an...See More

February 2 at 9:51pm · · ·

Rita Turner and Bryan Mion like this.
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- Julio Hurtado That's a good question, Glenn. There is scripture that speaks about the circumstance of our Lord's second advent, such as Rev. 1:7 that says, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and EVERY EYE
  
  February 4 at 12:17am ·
- Julio Hurtado and EVERY EYE will see Him..."
  
  February 4 at 12:18am ·
- Julio Hurtado This verse suggests that the second advent and the circumstance that the rapture happens in will be well known and not be covert.
  
  February 4 at 1:01am ·
- Julio Hurtado I'm fat-fingering the [ENTER] button or some command that I'm prematurely uploading text before I'm done.
  
  February 4 at 1:02am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Who is Jesus speaking to; us in the 21st century or to his disciples right infront of Him?
  
  Matt. 16:27-28 “THE SON OF MAN IS ABOUT TO COME IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER WITH HIS ANGELS and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.” THERE ARE SOME OF THOSE WHO ARE STANDING HERE WHO SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH UNTIL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM.”
  *Did “some” of jesus’ disciples who were standing with him when he spoke the above words, live to see the son of man coming in his kingdom?
  
  Matt. 26:63-64 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” {64} “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “BUT I SAY TO ALL OF YOU: IN THE FUTURE YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MIGHTY ONE AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
  *Is not Jesus pronouncing judgment on the Jews of his time? Is he not stating that they will see him? *Is he not using old testament judgment language to divinity in that God comes on the clouds of heaven and that is the reason the pharisees want to kill him?
  
  Rev. 1.7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
  *Are those who pierced Jesus still alive? Does this tell you something about the timing of Jesus’ coming in the clouds?
  
  February 4 at 8:51am ·
- Glenn Ferrell
  
  The actual coming of the Lord as a thief in the night is not an unknown event after it happens. The reference to a "thief" points out that that is is sudden and unexpected, not people afterwards wondering, "What happened?"
  
  [2 Peter 3:10-14] "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."
  
  Note: Tuese and I may differ on some of these matters (haven’t yet sat down and discussed with him); but, think we’d agree, there is no secret rapture; and the vv. 4-34 of Matthew 24 were addressed to “this generation” (to which he was speaking).
  
  February 4 at 9:33am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Ok, I'm just going to throw some thoughts out. Tell me what you think?
  
  Was The Bible written TO us in the 21st Century or TO people like Timothy, Titus, and TO the church in Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth…, the 7 seven churches in Asia minor? As you read the verses below, keep in mind audience relevance. Paul is writing to an actual church in the 1st century and Jesus is speaking to His disciples regarding the destruction of the temple and His coming. When you see pronouns such as “YOU” and “WE” and “US,” ask yourself what is the antecedent to these words? Remember, Paul and Jesus are writing or speaking to actual people in the 1st Century?
  
  1 Thess 4.13-18 But WE do not want YOU to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that YOU may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since WE believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this WE declare to YOU by a word from the Lord, that WE who are alive, who are left until THE COMING OF THE LORD, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the TRUMPET of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then WE who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so WE will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
  
  Matt 24.30-31 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. 31And he will send out his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
  32"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE. 35HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL NOT PASS AWAY.
  
  Heaven and Earth is not speaking of the literal physical earth or heaven. One, heaven is perfect, why would it need to pass away? Two, the O.T. describes heaven and earth in terms of covenant, nations and even the place where God intersects Earth, The Temple's Holy of Holies.
  Jesus, says The Temple would come down in that generation plus every thing He said from vs.4-34 would happen and they did.
  
  Every element of Matt 24:30-31 parallels 1 Thess 4:13-18.
  
  Coming of the Son of Man
  With the angels
  With the Trumpet
  Coming in the clouds/ Descends from heaven, in the air
  Gathering of the redeemed
  This generation shall not pass until all things are fulfilled/ We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
  
  *Is not Paul essentially stating that Christians are not in darkness that the day of the Lord would catch them off guard, by surprise, as like a thief in the night??
  1Thess 5.1-7
  1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU have no need to have anything written to YOU. 2FOR YOU YOURSELVES ARE FULLY AWARE THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. 3While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4BUT YOU ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, BROTHERS, FOR THAT DAY TO SURPRISE YOU LIKE A THIEF. 5For YOU are all children of light, children of the day. WE are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
  
  2 Peter 3
  This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing TO YOU… (see 1Pet 1)
  
  [1 Peter 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to YOU. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, HE HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,]
  
  …in which I am stirring up YOUr sincere mind by way of reminder, 2that YOU should remember the words spoken beforehand BY the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by YOUr apostles.
  3Know this first of all, that in THE LAST DAYS mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, "Where is THE PROMISE of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
  5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God THE HEAVENS existed long ago and THE EARTH was formed out of water and by water,6through which THE WORLD AT THAT TIME WAS DESTROYED, being flooded with water.
  7But by His word THE PRESENT HEAVENS AND EARTH are being reserved for fire, kept for THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and destruction of ungodly men.
  8But do not let this one fact escape YOUr notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
  9The Lord is not slow about HIS PROMISE, as some count slowness, but is patient TOWARD YOU, not wishing for ANY TO PERISH but FOR ALL to come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
  11Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought YOU to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13But according to his promise WE are waiting for NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH in which righteousness dWElls.
  
  a) Who is the “YOU” in verse 9?
  b) Is it every single individual in the world?
  c) Or is it to those whom this letter is addressed? See 2Pet3.1 and 1Pet1.1
  d) Who is the any in v9?
  e) Is not the antecedent of any, the “YOU” in the same verse?
  f) What is the antecedent of “all?” Is it not the “YOU” in the same verse?
  g) What would they perish from? What is perish referring to? Physical death? Hell?
  h) What is HIS PROMISE about? 2Pet 3.4 Jesus’ coming b/c He promised to return in that generation.
  i) Was the Lord slow about HIS PROMISE? No, b/c He returned in that generation
  j) Whose waiting for new heavens and a new earth; us in the 21st century or the people to whom Peter is speaking?
  
  February 4 at 4:52pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Matt 5: 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished
  
  Unless Heaven and Earth pass away, WE ARE STILL UNDER THE LAW. What did Jesus mean by heaven and earth passing away? He said it context of the destruction of the temple in Matt 24.35. This is apocalyptic language describing God wiping out the Jewish heaven and earth (covenant). This is precisely the type of language Peter is using in 2Pet3 to describe the same judgment Jesus was describing that would fall upon Jerusalem.
  
  OOOPS! Here I am trying to build my case for 70ad parousia of Jesus without defining terms. Before we go any further. How would you men DEFINE rapture???? Do believe it's physical bodies flying off the earth to meet Jesus in a cloud?
  
  February 4 at 5:07pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong Is the word rapture even in the Bible? NOPE.
  ;-)
  
  February 4 at 5:19pm ·
- Aldo Yannon I am no longer sure how to answer you brother. I do not joy in your preterism. I certinly joy in you and have been lifted up by your faith and zeal. I am sorry that I do not share your joy in your eschatology. I will always pray for you as I know you are praying for me.
  
  February 4 at 10:02pm ·
- Julio Hurtado
  
  A derivative of the verb "rapio, rapere, rapui, RAPTUM" (these four words are different verb forms that it would be found as) is found in the Latin Vulgate, the latin translation of the scriptures. The word "rapture" in latin means: to snatch; to carry off--to put it simply.
  
  In the case of 1Thess. 4:17, the text does say that those, who are alive at the second advent will be caught up in the clouds along with those, who have died in Christ and then meet Jesus in the air.
  
  Speaking as an amillennialist and partial preterist (just to let you know where I stand), I do believe that the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD is a sign of God's judgment on national Israel as a fulfillment of Jesus' olivet discourse (Matt 24). However, there is a tension between the things that have already happened and those things in prophecy that are YET to happen. The scriptures, such as Rev 1:7, 1Cor. 15:50-58) and Matt 24:30 - 31, explain that the Lord's parousia will be made public (shout of an archangel, trumpet sounding) and not secret, the people's of the world will mourn (that didn't happen in 70AD); the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable; as well as every eye will SEE Jesus riding on a cloud, in the same fashion as He ascended into heaven as the angels spoke to the disciples (Acts 1:10-11). However, a lot of these verses don't give a full picture of the Day of the Lord; we're only given part of the picture--we don't know what events immediately follow being caught-up.
  
  Because these prophetic conditions have not YET been met, I hold the conviction that there was no parousia in 70AD (let me know if I'm misrepresenting you, bro), since Jesus has not been SEEN yet. We, who are marked by the blessed Lord's precious blood, who are in union with Jesus and are born of God still look forward to the Lord's second parousia (presence; advent). And so we should keep watch for our master's return--that is our greatest hope. On that final day, we will have eternal fellowship with Jesus and He will finally vanquish death; and all our remaining sin will finally be done away with as we are transformed into the likeness of Christ.
  
  February 4 at 11:12pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Yes, rapture is a latin translation of the Greek. The Greek is harpazo. Similar, but different words. The word rapture does not equate harpazo.
  
  Goto Kelly Birks article on p6 of this link for more on HARPAZO:
  http://www.bibleprophecyfulfilled.org/art11.pdf
  
  You mention Matt 24:30-31 but 34 says "This Generation shall not pass away until all these things takes place." "All these things" are included Jesus' answer from v4-33.
  
  There's passages Rev 1:7, 1Cor. 15:50-58) and Matt 24:30 - 31, also state that the events will happen in "this generation,(Mat 24.34)" "these things will soon take place, the time is near (Rev 1.1,3), "not all of them will sleep."
  
  Matt. 26:63-64 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” {64} “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “BUT I SAY TO ALL OF YOU: IN THE FUTURE YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MIGHTY ONE AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
  
  Jesus here states "to all of them" that they will see HIm coming on the clouds.
  
  I will type more later, I gotta go to sleep.
  
  February 5 at 2:19am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong Aldo, I love you, too, bro. I just need to be convinced by Scripture Alone. Look at this as an opportunity to sharpen each other. I stick to my convictions unless I can be convinced by Scripture to believe otherwise.
  
  February 5 at 11:59am ·
- Aldo Yannon Then we should get together one a week.
  
  February 5 at 12:05pm ·
- Glenn Ferrell Tuese: Give me a call and I'll buy the coffee. These matters too involved for extensive discussion in FB.
  
  February 5 at 4:13pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  WHAT IS THE PAROUSIA OR COMING OF THE LORD?
  The Greek word parousia means “coming.” It is defined as an arrival with a consequential presence. Parousia occurs 24 times in the NT. Seventeen times parousia is used in connection with the second coming of Jesus within the lifetime (generation) of the Apostles, and would be connected with the destruction of the temple.
  
  1. Matthew 10:23 `And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, FOR VERILY I SAY TO YOU, YE MAY NOT HAVE COMPLETED THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN MAY COME.
  2. Matthew 16:27-28 `FOR, THE SON OF MAN IS ABOUT TO COME IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.28VERILY I SAY TO YOU, THERE ARE CERTAIN OF THOSE STANDING HERE WHO SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH TILL THEY MAY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS REIGN.'
  3. Matthew 23:36-39 36verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION. 37`Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will. 38Lo, left desolate to you is your house; 39for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed [is] he who is COMING in the name of the Lord.'
  4. Matthew 24:1-3 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple, 2and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' 3And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `TELL US, WHEN SHALL THESE BE? AND WHAT [IS] THE SIGN OF THY PRESENCE, AND OF THE FULL END OF THE AGE?'
  5. Matthew 24:15 `Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that WAS SPOKEN OF THROUGH DANIEL THE PROPHET, standing in the holy place (WHOEVER IS READING LET HIM OBSERVE)
  6. Matthew 24:27-34 for as the lightning doth COME forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the PRESENCE OF THE SON OF MAN; 28for wherever the carcase may be, there shall the eagles be gathered together. 29`And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; 30AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN THE HEAVEN; AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH SMITE THE BREAST, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING UPON THE CLOUDS OF THE HEAVEN, WITH POWER AND MUCH GLORY; 31AND HE SHALL SEND HIS MESSENGERS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS CHOSEN FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM THE ENDS OF THE HEAVENS UNTO THE ENDS THEREOF. 32`And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have beCOME tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer [is] nigh, 33so also ye, when ye may see all these, ye know that it is nigh -- at the doors. 34Verily I say to you, THIS GENERATION may not pass away till all these may COME to pass.
  7. Matthew 24:37 and as the days of Noah -- so shall be also the PRESENCE OF THE SON OF MAN;
  8. Matthew 24:39 and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the PRESENCE OF THE SON OF MAN.
  9. Matthew 26:63-65 and Jesus was silent. And the chief priest answering said to him, `I adjure thee, by the living God, that thou mayest say to us, if thou art the Christ -- the Son of God.' 64Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter YE SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER, AND COMING UPON THE CLOUDS, OF THE HEAVEN.'65Then the chief priest rent his garments, saying, -- `He hath spoken evil; what need have we yet of witnesses? lo, now ye heard his evil speaking;
  10. Mark 13:30 Verily I say to you, that THIS GENERATION may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;
  11. Mark 14:62 and Jesus said, `I am; and YE SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER, AND COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, OF THE HEAVEN.'
  12. Luke 21:20 `And when YE MAY SEE JERUSALEM SURROUNDED BY ENCAMPMENTS, THEN KNOW THAT COME NIGH DID HER DESOLATION;
  13. Luke 21:24 and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and JERUSALEM SHALL BE TRODDEN DOWN BY NATIONS, TILL THE TIMES OF NATIONS BE FULFILLED.
  14. Luke 21:32 VERILY I SAY TO YOU -- THIS GENERATION MAY NOT PASS AWAY TILL ALL MAY HAVE COME TO PASS;
  15. John 21:20-23 20And Peter having turned about doth see the disciple whom Jesus was loving following, (who also reclined in the supper on his breast, and said, `Sir, who is he who is delivering thee up?') 21Peter having seen this one, saith to Jesus, `Lord, and what of this one?' 22Jesus saith to him, `IF HIM I WILL TO REMAIN TILL I COME, WHAT -- TO THEE? BE THOU FOLLOWING ME.' THIS WORD, THEREFORE, WENT FORTH TO THE BRETHREN THAT THAT DISCIPLE DOTH NOT DIE, 23YET JESUS DID NOT SAY TO HIM, THAT HE DOTH NOT DIE, BUT, `IF HIM I WILL TO REMAIN TILL I COME, WHAT -- TO THEE?'
  16. Acts 24:25 and he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, AND THE JUDGMENT THAT IS ABOUT TO BE, Felix, having become afraid, answered, `For the present be going, and having got time, I will call for thee;'
  17. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 so that ye are not behind in any gift, waiting for the REVELATION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, 8who also shall confirm you UNTO THE END -- UNBLAMABLE IN THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST;
  18. 1 Corinthians 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, AFTERWARDS THOSE WHO ARE THE CHRIST'S, IN HIS PRESENCE,
  19. 1 Thessalonians 1:10and TO WAIT FOR HIS SON FROM THE HEAVENS, whom He did raise out of the dead -- Jesus, who is rescuing us from the anger that is COMING.
  20. 1 Thessalonians 2:19 for what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even YE BEFORE OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IN HIS PRESENCE?
  21. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, IN THE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.
  22. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the PRESENCE OF THE LORD -- may not precede those asleep, 16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, SHALL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, 17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
  23. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, AND BODY, BE PRESERVED UNBLAMEABLY IN THE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST;
  24. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard TO THE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND OF OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM,
  25. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, WHOM THE LORD SHALL CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS PRESENCE,
  
  February 5 at 11:45pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎26. 2 Timothy 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO IS ABOUT TO JUDGE LIVING AND DEAD AT HIS MANIFESTATION AND HIS REIGN --
  27. Titus 2:11-13 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, 12teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in THE PRESENT AGE, 13WAITING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND MANIFESTATION OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST,
  28. Hebrews 9:28so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, A SECOND TIME, apart from a sin-offering, SHALL APPEAR, TO THOSE WAITING FOR HIM -- TO SALVATION!
  29. Hebrews 10:25-27 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as a custom of certain [is], but exhorting, and so much the more AS YE SEE THE DAY COMING nigh. 26For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, 27but a certain FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT, AND FIERY ZEAL, ABOUT TO DEVOUR THE OPPOSERS;
  30. Hebrews 10:36-37 for of patience ye have need, that the will of God having done, ye may receive the promise, 37FOR YET A VERY VERY LITTLE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY;
  31. James 5:7-9 Be patient, then, brethren, till the PRESENCE OF THE LORD; lo, the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter; 8be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the PRESENCE OF THE LORD HATH DRAWN NIGH; 9murmur not against one another, brethren, that ye may not be condemned; lo, THE JUDGE BEFORE THE DOOR HATH STOOD.
  32. 1 Peter 1:5-7 who, in the power of God are being guarded, through faith, UNTO SALVATION, READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME, 6in which ye are glad, a little now, if it be necessary, being made to sorrow in manifold trials, 7that the proof of your faith -- much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved -- may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, IN THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST,
  33. 1 Peter 1:13 having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, hope perfectly upon the grace THAT IS BEING BROUGHT TO YOU IN THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST,
  34. 1 Peter 4:4-7 in which they think it strange -- your not running with them to the same excess of dissoluteness, speaking evil, 5who shall give an account to HIM WHO IS READY TO JUDGE LIVING AND DEAD, 6for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit. 7AND OF ALL THINGS THE END HATH COME NIGH; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,
  35. 1 Peter 4:17 because IT IS THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THE JUDGMENT from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
  36. 2 Peter 1:16 For, skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you THE POWER AND PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty --
  37. 2 Peter 3:3-4 this first knowing, that THERE SHALL COME IN THE LATTER END OF THE DAYS SCOFFERS, according to their own desires going on, 4and saying, `WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS PRESENCE? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'
  38. 2 Peter 3:8-10 And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; 9THE LORD IS NOT SLOW IN REGARD TO THE PROMISE, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation, 10and it will COME -- THE DAY OF THE LORD -- AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, IN WHICH THE HEAVENS WITH A RUSHING NOISE WILL PASS AWAY, AND THE ELEMENTS WITH BURNING HEAT BE DISSOLVED, AND EARTH AND THE WORKS IN IT SHALL BE BURNT UP.
  39. 2Peter 3:12 waiting for and hasting to the PRESENCE OF THE DAY OF GOD, BY WHICH THE HEAVENS, BEING ON FIRE, SHALL BE DISSOLVED, AND THE ELEMENTS WITH BURNING HEAT SHALL MELT;
  40. 1 John 2:28 AND NOW, LITTLE CHILDREN, remain in him, that when he may be manifested, we may have boldness, and MAY NOT BE ASHAMED BEFORE HIM, IN HIS PRESENCE;
  41. 1 John 3:2 BELOVED, NOW, CHILDREN OF GOD ARE WE, AND IT WAS NOT YET MANIFESTED WHAT WE SHALL BE, AND WE HAVE KNOWN THAT IF HE MAY BE MANIFESTED, LIKE HIM WE SHALL BE, BECAUSE WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS;
  42. Revelation 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, TO SHEW TO HIS SERVANTS WHAT THINGS IT BEHOVETH TO COME TO PASS QUICKLY; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,
  43. Revelation 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- FOR THE TIME IS NIGH!
  44. Revelation 1:7 LO, HE DOTH COME WITH THE CLOUDS, AND SEE HIM SHALL EVERY EYE, EVEN THOSE WHO DID PIERCE HIM, and wail because of him shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE LAND. Yes! Amen!
  45. Revelation 1:19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, AND THE THINGS THAT ARE ABOUT TO COME AFTER THESE THINGS;
  46. Revelation 2:5 remember, then, whence thou hast fallen, and reform, and the first works do; and if not, I COME TO THEE QUICKLY, and will remove thy lamp-stand from its place -- if thou mayest not reform;
  47. Revelation 2:16 `Reform! and if not, I COME TO THEE QUICKLY, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
  48. Revelation 2:25 but that which ye have -- HOLD YE, TILL I MAY COME;
  49. Revelation 3:3 `Remember, then, how thou hast received, and heard, and be keeping, and reform: if, then, thou mayest not watch, I WILL COME UPON THEE AS A THIEF, AND THOU MAYEST NOT KNOW WHAT HOUR I WILL COME UPON THEE.
  50. Revelation 3:10-11 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF THE TRIAL THAT IS ABOUT TO COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try those dwelling upon the earth. 11LO, I COME QUICKLY, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.
  51. Revelation 11:1-2 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it; 2and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, AND THE HOLY CITY THEY SHALL TREAD DOWN FORTY-TWO MONTHS;
  52. Revelation 22:6-7 And he said to me, `These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger TO SHEW TO HIS SERVANTS THE THINGS THAT IT BEHOVETH TO COME QUICKLY: 7LO, I COME QUICKLY; happy [is] he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'
  53. Revelation 22:10 And he saith to me, `THOU MAYEST NOT SEAL THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS SCROLL, BECAUSE THE TIME IS NIGH;
  54. Revelation 22:12 AND LO, I COME QUICKLY, AND MY REWARD [IS] WITH ME, TO RENDER TO EACH AS HIS WORK SHALL BE;
  55. Revelation 22:20 he saith -- who is testifying these things -- `YES, I COME QUICKLY!' Amen! YES, BE COMING, LORD JESUS!
  
  February 5 at 11:46pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong Coffee sounds good, Pastor Ferrell.
  
  February 5 at 11:47pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Aldo,
  Feel free to write out your concerns. This is how I can get sharpened. We can also meet. Plus, it's good on fb so others can learn.
  
  Men,
  I've listed over 50 verses with most of them stating an obvious imminent return of Christ in the first century? Perhaps, you can show me how :
  [soon, near, quickly, this generation, not delay, the end of all things is at hand, some standing here (back around 30AD) shall not taste death until they see the son of man coming in His glory, the judge is standing at the door, about to, preserved bodies]
  means more than 2000 years???
  
  February 5 at 11:58pm ·
- Aldo Yannon
  
  Tuese. Once again you show yourself quite knowledgeable about the Bible and of your position. Your onslaught of verses is always quite impressive. I know your faith and your sincerity and truly you are a man that I admire. I believe your testimony is one where you came out of sensational dispensationalism. Your reactions to this theology I think is well taken and I am sympathetic to your criticism and experiences. But you have gone from one extreme to the other with preterism. And what has motivated you to go down this road I do not understand. You say that it is plain in the Bible, but I can not see how anyone would say this. We are looking at the same texts and we are not disagreeing within orthodoxy, but we are grossly disagreeing, thus, one of us is right and one of us is wrong, one of us is outside of orthodoxy. I do not think there is a middle position on this.
  
  You gave me a lot of verses and I am not sure were to start. So for the moment let me just start with a few general comments.
  
  You began your comments by saying that I have to show you proof from the scriptures alone to convince you otherwise. This comment misinterprets the Protestant motto Sola Scriptura. At the Diet of Worms Luther did not say I will be convinced only by scripture. He said he would be convinced by scripture or sound reason, neither which the church doctors could do. One saying that one will only be convinced by scripture usually means that one in incorrigible and no matter the source they will not be convinced.
  
  When one claims some new breakthrough of understanding, especially if has to do eschatology, we should always be skeptical. What preterism is saying is that it knows exactly the date of Christ’s return. The only difference it has, with say Harold Camping, is that it puts the return in the past. These eschatological movements then make themselves an antithesis to the any current church, or the church of the past. Mormons do this. The church disappeared when the last apostle died and then reappeared in 1823 in upstate New York through the words of some huckster. The intervening years the church was non-existent. Dr. Ralph Winter called this the BOBO effect, the church blinks off then blinks on when the founder appears. Calvin’s letter to Sadolet is informative in this respect. He argues that the reformation was not an new movement or created a new thing. Calvin argues that the protestant churches were standing within the church tradition as inherited from the church fathers. Preterism has to reject Nicene, Aquinas Heidelberg and Westminster. ‘Christ will come again’ is a fundamental testimony of the church. There are various understandings of how this will be, but to say that this has already happen, and that the return was not in the flesh but spiritual or manifest in the Roman Army is contradictory to what the church has taught, it is not simply another view of eschatology. Someone might be so bold to say that I am standing with church tradition and against the bible. They often cast themselves as a Luther and I am like the traditionalist van Eck. This is a distorted analogy and it is a sign of hubris. I have said to you on several occasions that I would be more receptive to your position if you could argue your position from the perspective of the history of interpretation. I want to encourage you to do this.
  
  I will have more to say at a later time.
  
  February 6 at 10:47pm ·
- David Tuialuuluu
  
  Listen u guys, You got to understand that the bible never get out dated. What I mean by that most of the bible has a double application. Have you ever heard of that famous saying that history repeats itself. Anyways, we all know that Jesus is comming again real soon. The question is, Are u ready for Jesus to come? Are u ready to look in his face? Have u fought a good fight? Have u stand up for right? Have others seen Jesus in you? My friends let us not waste time arguing over the nonsence trying to show how much we know about the bible instead of applying the bible in our lives. No wonder Jesus said in matt: 7:21-23 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. v22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Listen to Christ's answer v23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Friends those are some strong words from our Lord. So again the question is what is iniquity? oh by the way in these verses Jesus is not talking to the world He is talking to those who profess to be christians.
  
  February 6 at 11:32pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Aldo,
  I'm not aware of what you mean by the "perspective of the history of interpretation?"
  Creeds, Confessions, have been wrong. The church has been wrong, i.e., Corpenicus, Galileo, Indulgences, Salvation... From the get go, soteriology wasn't totally hammered out until the Reformation.
  
  Let's stick with Matt 24.1-34. Were verses 4-33 fulfilled in that 1st century generation?
  btw, the disciples asked him when the destruction of the temple would be, His coming and the end of the age. Jesus answered and up to v34 He said it would happen in "This Generation." And from History, the temple was destroyed with not one stone upon another as Jesus stated within that generation.
  I have shown you several "comings of the Lord" in the OT but God was not physically present. This, too, is another example.
  Besides Acts 1 and 1 Thes 4 what other verses for a physical return doctrine would you use? Could mother church and the creeds be wrong on this? Yes, they can and they have. There is only ONE source that will settle the matter, The Word Alone. Yes, proper exegesis trumps all, brother Julio. I love that.
  
  I want and love the Truth and the Truth will prevail. If this is not of God then God will put it to an end. But if it is of God, you won't be able to stop this. Preterism is growing like wild fire thanks to the internet.
  
  Cousin David,
  Thanks for chiming in.
  fyi, I do NOT believe that Jesus is coming again real soon. You're just assuming that that's what I believe. You need to demonstrate from The Bible that Jesus is coming soon. The Apostles who wrote the NT said Jesus was coming soon, He was near, at hand, about to Judge, will come quickly and not delay and so forth...
  
  I will be happy if any of you can just show me how Matt 24:1-34 is future to us in the 2011?
  
  February 7 at 3:31pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong Cousin David,
  I do not doubt The Bible by my last cute statement. I was just trying to show a biblical argument used Gamaliel (Acts 5.33-39). Preterism is actually growing due to The Holy Spirit.
  
  February 7 at 11:02pm ·
- David Bernard Can God tell time?
  
  February 8 at 5:29am · · 1 person
- Aldo Yannon
  
  Dear Tuese,
  
  I hope you are listening to what you are saying. I do not know if you heard me correctly. Perhaps I am unable to communicate effectively. But if I hear you rightly, you are saying that the church was wrong until the reformation. I hope you were not saying this. It also sounds like you are saying that the churches’ eschatology has been wrong from the start, until now. In a later post you said that preterism is growing due to the holy spirit. Please listen to what you are saying.
  
  You say that the church has been wrong, wrong, wrong, but you have told me why? I asked you a while ago that where does this interpretation come from, is there anybody who has written about it? Enlightenment often comes when you understand where a teaching come from and why.
  
  Sticking with Matt 24. We have talked before and the reason my words may seem a little pointed is because when I have suggested other interpretations you have persisted in your commitments. You say that Matt 24 teaches that Christ came in A.D. 70. His return was in the form of the Roman Army, it was a non physical appearance like in the OT(?). In vv29-31 the text says that the return will be physical, “...all the tribes of the earth with mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory. And he will send out his angles with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This is a powerful appearance of the coming of Jesus and you say a Roman legion fills this description! I am willing to admit that the destruction of Jerusalem may be a type or an example of the parousia, but it is not the parousia. The destruction does not fulfill all that Jesus says about his return. What preterism had done to get around this is to engage in bad and questionable exegesis, like the interpretation of Acts 1 that was found in your paper. I know you did not write it but you put it in there. This is why I have asked you to see how other people have interpreted these texts.
  
  I say these things in love because you are a man I love and admire.
  
  Aldo
  
  February 8 at 12:41pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Dear Aldo,
  Thank you for your love and concern, brother. I have counted the cost and I want and love The Truth more than traditions. Why must I submit to something that I do not believe the Scripture teaches?
  
  Yes, let's stick to the Scripture. R.C. Sproul teaches that Matthew 24:4-34 is fulfilled.
  
  http://www.myspace.com/video/philosophyandtheology/this-generation/54210712
  
  I agree with R.C.
  Like R.C., I do not believe that v29-31 is speaking of a physical return. This is apocalyptic language right out of the OT.
  
  The Bible speaks of the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars in connection with judgment. This language occurs in the prophets to refer to the historical judgment of nations. Sun, moon and stars are related to people, nations, leaders.
  
  In Genesis 1:14-19 God gave the HEAVENly lights to mark the seasons and govern the day and night.
  In Gen 37:9-11 Joseph dreams of the sun, moon and stars bowing down before him. This represents his family, the nation of Israel. In Biblical times and Today, the sun, moon and stars are symbolic of nations, i.e., The USA flag has 50 stars; Japan has a sun; and Muslim flags have a moon and star. When someone or a nation is prospering, it said that they are a shining star, a bright a light. But when things are going down hill, it is said to be dark, gloomy, falling. This collapsing universe and great grand catastrophe language is known through Scripture as apocalyptic language. It is not Literal but highly figurative and symbolic. The prophets of God would use this terrifying language typically against a nation that has come under God's judgment. Jesus used it against the Pharisees and Jewish leaders of His day.
  
  {Isaiah 13:9-13
  judgment on Babylon 539 B.C.
  9 See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. 10 The stars of HEAVEN and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pRIDE of the ruthless. 12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the HEAVENs tremble; and the EARTH will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.
  
  Isaiah 34:4
  judgment on Edom 703 B.C.
  3 Their slain will be thrown out their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. 4 All the stars of the HEAVENs will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. 5 My sword has drunk its fill in the HEAVENs; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed. 6 The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat— the blood of lambs and goats, fat from the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom.
  
  Ezekiel 32:5-8
  judgment on Egypt 568 B.C.
  5 I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. 6 I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. 7 When I snuff you out, I will cover the HEAVENs and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. 8 All the shining lights in the HEAVENs I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land, declares the Sovereign LORD.
  
  Joel 2:10-11
  judgment on Judah 586 B.C.
  10 Before them the EARTH shakes, the sky trembles, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine. 11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?
  MATT 2429 “Immediately after the distress of those days
  “‘the sun will be darkened,
  and the moon will not give its light;
  the stars will fall from the sky,
  and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
  
  ACTS 2
  Judgment of Jerusalem 70 A.D.
  19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
  and signs on the earth below,
  blood and fire and billows of smoke.
  20 The sun will be turned to darkness
  and the moon to blood
  before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
  
  REV 6:12
  Judgment of Jerusalem 70 A.D.
  I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
  
  Again, this is NOT literal language but apocalyptic. If one star hit the earth, THERE IS NO MORE EARTH. Our sun is relatively a small star and it is thousand of times bigger than the earth. The passage above says star[S} plural falling to the earth.
  
  The Son of Man 24.30. In verse 30, Jesus refers to Daniel 7.13-14, which is a vision of the ascension of Christ and His seating at the right hand of the Father see also Matt.26.64. {Notice which direction the son of man is going in Daniel 7:13-14 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of HEAVEN. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
  Matt 26.64 64”Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of HEAVEN.”}
  
  The Gathering of the Elect 24.31. The word translated angels (aggelos) may also mean “messengers,” depending on the context. In Matthew 11.10, John the Baptist is referred to as an aggelos. The elect are gathered from the four corners of the EARTH through the preaching of the Gospel by Christ’s messengers John 11.51-52; Rev. 7.9
  
  I say these things in love, too. I like the fact that we can reason together. I just don't see your interpretation convincing. I believe Jesus was telling the Truth that He would return in the generation He was speaking to.
  
  February 8 at 4:29pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Dear Brother Aldo,
  Do you believe Jesus was talking about 2 parousias? One in 70AD and another in the future? If so, can you show me b/c I don't see it?
  Since Jesus was teaching His disciples He would return in "This generation", the one He was speaking to, would one not read Acts 1 within that generation and not 2000+ years into the future? unless, you believe the NT teaches 2 future paraousias? Matthew 24 uses parousia before v34 (this generation) in 3, 27 and after in v37, 39.
  
  I believe Scripture teaches only one parousia.
  
  I appreciate our dialog b/c it forces me to defend what I believe. Thanks. Iron sharpens iron.
  
  February 8 at 4:47pm ·
- Aldo Yannon
  
  Dear Tuese,
  
  Maybe my comment was misplaced. I did say that there are 2 parousia, I did not mean that, that was never in my mind. I suppose what I was trying to say was that this chapter seems to be talking about two things the destruction of Jerusalem and the return of Christ. There is only one return not 2. I was thinking, and perhaps mistakenly, that since the two events are linked, that the images of horror of the destruction informs the other.
  
  However let me try again. You rightly point out in v3 the apostles are asking Jesus about the destruction of Jerusalem and his coming, the end of the age. But they ask Jesus two questions. The first is the destruction of Jerusalem. His answer is in vv4-35. If you want to say that this generation will witness this, the destruction of Jerusalem, then I would agree. Then we could understand vv30-31 more symbolically as OT judgement language. In the Greek ...all the tribes of the earth.. could be rendered, ...all the people of the land... that would be the local area of Palestine not the whole earth. If this is how we would understand vv4-35 then there is no disagreement.
  
  Verses 36-51 is the answer to the second question, ...your coming of the end of the age. Jesus answers that only the Father knows the end of the age and it will be un-expected. So the chapter answers two questions, but why are they linked? Perhaps because they are both judgements.
  
  The destruction of Jerusalem is not the same as the end of age or return, it is simply that, the end of the OT age? The return of Christ, no-one knows. The two are linked together perhaps because of the judgement language. Luke 21 and Mark 13 talk about the destruction of Jerusalem but there is no mention of the return of Christ, there are exhortations to endure persecutions. Only Matt. has this added point of the return of Christ in the destruction dialogue or parable. I think this is a better understanding of this text.
  
  I hope this is helpful. And you have sharpened me.
  
  Aldo
  
  February 8 at 8:08pm ·
- Aldo Yannon
  
  Dear Tuese,
  
  I have enjoyed our conversation more than I thought and I think much of the enjoyment comes from your graciousness and patience. I hope my comments have been guided by love and not pride. I also hope that my motivation had been to see you prosper. For me, in our brief exchanges you have made me think through some of the issues that I had not before, at lest not to the extent that I have this past week. The past two days especially have been fruitful. Particularly, you have helped understand Matt. 24. The apostles ask him two questions and he gives two answers, clearly demarcating the destruction of Jerusalem with his coming, two separates events, not one event. For this I am grateful. And I want to continue speaking with you. Please forgive me if I have been short, unclear or dismissive. These are qualities that I despise in others and in myself. It is ironic that I hate these qualities in others but I do not notice them in myself until someone points them out, and even then I am resistant to their correction. Graciousness is not a quality I have in abundance.
  
  I would like to return to something that we talked about at the beginning. I started our conversation by first trying to state my convictions or presuppositions. I without hesitation stand within the reformed tradition. This tradition points me in a direction that is for my benefit. Other Christians have wrested and debated over these texts as well, I am not the only one. It would not be wise of me to forsake their testimony or witness. Now, you know me, you know that I had troubles with my former church and how I disagreed with how they applied the confessions. Their error was due to their ignorance of the Bible and the application of our confessional standards. The issue I had was how we understand inspiration or inerrancy. My questions were the result of studying the Hebrew Bible. To my surprise others had thought or observed the same things that I saw, in fact I was somewhat tardy in seeing these issues. The WCF itself says that synods and councils err and are not the standard of faith, but is a “help.” The best protestant theology always has a confession to guide it not because they wanted the Bible, plus something, but they wanted a context for understanding scripture. As I write these words I feel terrible because I am defending a tradition that rejected me, but I think, by God’s grace, that I can discern between the errs of some and the help that I need.
  
  I think the following passage from C.S. Lewis is very helpful in what I am trying to say.
  
  “In a way I quite understand why some people are put off by Theology. I remember once when I had been giving a talk to the RA.F., an old, hard-bitten officer got up and said, "I've no use for all that stuff. But, mind you, I'm a religious man too. I know there's a God. I've felt Him: out alone in the desert at night: the tremendous mystery. And that's just why I don't believe all your neat little dogmas and formulas about Him. To anyone who's met the real thing they all seem so petty and pedantic and unreal!" Now in a sense I quite agreed with that man. I think he had probably had a real experience of God in the desert. And when he turned from that experience to the Christian creeds, I think he really was turning from something real to something less real. In the same way, if a man has once looked at the Atlantic from the beach, and then goes and looks at a map of the Atlantic, he also will be turning from something real to something less real: turning from real waves to a bit of coloured paper. But here comes the point. The map is admittedly only coloured paper, but there are two things you have to remember about it. In the first place, it is based on what hundreds and thousands of people have found out by sailing the real Atlantic. In that way it has behind it masses of experience just as real as the one you could have from the beach; only, while yours would be a single isolated glimpse, the map fits all those different experiences together. In the second place, if you want to go anywhere, the map is absolutely necessary. As long as you are content with walks on the beach, your own glimpses are far more fun than looking at a map. But the map is going to be more use than walks on the beach if you want to get to America. Now, Theology is like the map. Merely learning and thinking about the Christian doctrines, if you stop there, is less real and less exciting than the sort of thing my friend got in the desert. Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God-experiences compared with which any thrills or pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get any further, you must use the map. You see, what happened to that man in the desert may have been real, and was certainly exciting, but nothing comes of it. It leads nowhere. There is nothing to do about it In fact, that is just why a vague religion-all about feeling God in nature, and so on-is so attractive. It is all thrills and no work; like watching the waves from the beach. But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map. In other words, Theology is practical: especially now. In the old days, when there was less education and discussion, perhaps it was possible to get on with a very few simple ideas about God. But it is not so now. Everyone reads, everyone hears things discussed. Consequently, if you do not listen to Theology, that will not mean that you have no ideas about God. It will mean that you have a lot of wrong ones-bad, muddled, out-of-date ideas. For a great many of the ideas about God which are trotted out as novelties today, are simply the ones which real Theologians tried centuries ago and rejected. To believe in the popular religion of modern England is retrogression-like believing the earth is flat.”
  (Mere Christianity, Book IV: Beyond Personality: Or First Steps In The Doctrine Of The Trinity: 1. Making and Begetting)
  
  February 9 at 1:24pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  Aldo,
  
  Matt 24:1-2 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2”Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
  
  The 3 Qs asked by the disciples gives us insight.
  Pt.1. Mt 24.3 “when will this happen, and
  Pt.2. Mt. 24.3 what will be the sign of your coming and
  Pt.3. Mt. 24.3 of the end of the age?”
  
  Pt 1 is talking about the destruction of the Temple;
  Pt 2 If the Temple is coming down, God Almighty is The One who will bring it down. The Word here is parousia. Plus, the disciples were jewish boys and knew that God CAME in judgment all thru out the OT but He was not physically present.
  Pt 3 If the Temple is destroyed then the end of the OT age has occured. The temple was symbolic of the OT covenant God had with the Jews. It represented the Law, sacrificial system, priesthood, God's Presence... Its destruction is a powerful visual for all to see that God had ended His covenant with the Jews.
  
  These 3 questions are all connected to one context; the destruction of the temple.
  
  Plus, if you concede that the verses up to 34 were fulfilled, then what do you do with v27 which uses parousia.
  
  27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the COMING of the Son of Man.
  
  v36-51
  The disciples did not know the day or the hour but they knew the generation, their generation.
  
  February 9 at 5:56pm ·
- Aldo Yannon I might be out the next few days, I will try to respond as soon as I can. I am still in this conversation.
  
  Aldo
  
  February 10 at 11:21am ·
- Aldo Yannon
  
  Dear Tuese,
  
  In my last few posts I suggested, albeit not a perfect one, an interpretation of Matt 24 that I think you should go with. Of course we can modify it. But what I was suggesting was that part or half of the prophecy has fulfilment, the description of the temple, and the other part, the end of the age is in the future. In fact this is in accord, albeit not perfect, with most commentators on this passage. A former professor of mine G.R. Beasley-Murray held this position. You were saying the whole passage is fulfilled in A.D. 70. This can not be. The reason is that it would mean that A.D. 70 would be the return of Christ and the end of the age, equivalent to Rev 21. Look further to Matt 26 you would have to say this is fulfilled too. Tuese this is not some end of the O.T. era, this is the end of the age, the coming of Christ, the gathering of the saints. If you are going to spiritualize this text you are doing great damage to the text. Compare this text to Luke 21 and you will see that this may be a judgement but not the coming of Christ, not the end of the age. If you are going to say that this is Christ’s coming then you have to say this is the end of the age, and you can not spiritualize it and say this is the end of the O.T. No! The end of the O.T. was at the cross, Mark 15:33-39. Please reconsider.
  
  Perhaps we should get together.
  
  Aldo
  
  February 11 at 11:57am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  “AGE” Notice how “This”Age refers to the First Covenant (Judaism) and “That” Age or the The Age to Come refers to the New Covenant
  see 46.
  
  24. Matthew 12:32” Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in THIS AGE or in the AGE TO COME.
  
  25. Matthew 13:39-40 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the END OF THE AGE, and the harvesters are angels. 40As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the END OF THE AGE.
  
  26. Matthew 13:49-50This is how it will be at the END OF THE AGE. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  
  27. Matthew 24:3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the END OF THE AGE?”
  
  28. Matthew 28:20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very END OF THE AGE.”
  
  29. Mark 10:29-31 Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake,30but that he will receive a hundred times as much NOW in the PRESENT AGE, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the AGE TO COME, eternal life. 31”But many who are first will be last, and the last, first.
  
  30. Luke 16:8”And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of THIS AGE are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.
  
  31. Luke 18:29-30 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30will fail to receive many times as much in THIS AGE and, in the AGE TO COME, eternal life.”
  
  32. Luke 20:34-35Jesus replied, “The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage.
  
  35But those who are considered worthy of taking part IN THAT AGE and IN THE RESURRECTION from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,
  
  33. 1 Corinthians 1:20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of THIS AGE? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
  
  34. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of THIS AGE nor of the rulers of THIS AGE, who are passing away; 7No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of THE RULERS OF THIS AGE understood it, for if they had, THEY would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
  
  35. 1 Corinthians 3:18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of THIS AGE, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise.
  
  36. 1 Corinthians 10:11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom THE FULFILLMENT OF THE AGES HAS COME.
  
  37. 2 Corinthians 4:4The god of THIS AGE has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  
  38. Galatians 1:4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from THE PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God and Father
  
  39. Ephesians 1:21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the PRESENT AGE but also in THE ONE TO COME.
  
  40. Ephesians 2:6-7 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the COMING AGES he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
  
  41. Ephesians 3:8-9 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for AGES past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
  
  42. Colossians 1:25-27 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for AGES and generations, but is NOW disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
  
  43. 1 Timothy 6:18-20 Command THEM to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way THEY will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation FOR THE COMING AGE, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. 20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
  
  44. Titus 2:12-14It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in THIS PRESENT AGE, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
  
  45. Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and THE POWERS OF THE COMING AGE, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
  
  46. Hebrews 9:26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But NOW HE HAS APPEARED ONCE FOR ALL AT THE END OF THE AGES to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
  
  47. Jude 1:25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before ALL AGES, now and forevermore! Amen
  
  48. Revelation 15:3and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the AGEs.
  
  49. **Galatians 4:3-5 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4BUT WHEN THE TIME HAD FULLY COME, GOD SENT HIS SON, BORN OF A WOMAN, BORN UNDER LAW, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
  
  February 11 at 12:29pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎{You were saying the whole passage is fulfilled in A.D. 70. This can not be. The reason is that it would mean that A.D. 70 would be the return of Christ and the end of the age, equivalent to Rev 21.}
  ***Exactly.
  
  [Look further to Matt 26 you would have to say this is fulfilled too.]
  ***This is exactly what I have been saying!
  Matthew 26:63-65 and Jesus was silent. And the chief priest answering said to him, `I adjure thee, by the living God, that thou mayest say to us, if thou art the Christ -- the Son of God.' 64Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter YE SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER, AND COMING UPON THE CLOUDS, OF THE HEAVEN.'65Then the chief priest rent his garments, saying, -- `He hath spoken evil; what need have we yet of witnesses? lo, now ye heard his evil speaking;
  Again, Jesus is telling the priest that he would see the Son of Man coming…. Just like he said “This Generation won’t pass until,” and “every eye shall see Him even those who pierced him.”
  
  {Tuese this is not some end of the O.T. era, this is the end of the age, the coming of Christ, the gathering of the saints.]
  ***Jesus and the apostles spoke of “this age” and “the age to come” while being in “this age” which = Old Covenant. The end of the age took place in 70AD.
  
  [If you are going to spiritualize this text you are doing great damage to the text.]
  ***I don’t think I am spiritualizing the text and you haven’t shown me from the text how if I am. Plus, I believe your view does greater damage to the text b/c you make Jesus and prophets liars. Your view would tear “This Generation,” “You shall see the Son of Man coming…” out of its immediate time context.
  Daniel said it would happen when the power of the holy people (the jews) was shattered.
  Daniel 12:2-7AND MANY OF THOSE WHO SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. 3 AND THOSE WHO ARE WISE SHALL SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE SKY ABOVE; AND THOSE WHO TURN MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, LIKE THE STARS FOREVER AND EVER. 4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
  5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?" 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that WHEN THE SHATTERING OF THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE COMES TO AN END ALL THESE THINGS WOULD BE FINISHED.
  
  February 11 at 6:25pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎[ Compare this text to Luke 21 and you will see that this may be a judgement but not the coming of Christ, not the end of the age.]
  ***Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple Luke 21 5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6"As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER THAT WILL NOT BE THROWN DOWN." 7And they asked him, " 8And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. 9And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once."
  Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution 10Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name’s sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name’s sake. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By your endurance you will gain your lives.
  Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem 20"BUT WHEN YOU SEE JERUSALEM SURROUNDED BY ARMIES, THEN KNOW THAT ITS DESOLATION HAS COME NEAR. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22FOR THESE ARE DAYS OF VENGEANCE, TO FULFILL ALL THAT IS WRITTEN. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and JERUSALEM WILL BE TRAMPLED UNDERFOOT BY THE GENTILES, UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES ARE FULFILLED.
  The Coming of the Son of Man
  25"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. FOR THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS WILL BE SHAKEN. 27AND THEN THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. 28Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
  The Lesson of the Fig Tree
  29And he told them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. 31So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL HAS TAKEN PLACE. 33 HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL NOT PASS AWAY.
  Watch Yourselves
  34"But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
  37And every day he was teaching in the temple, but at night he went out and lodged on the mount called Olivet. 38And early in the morning all the people came to him in the temple to hear him.
  
  February 11 at 6:26pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎[ If you are going to say that this is Christ’s coming then you have to say this is the end of the age, and you can not spiritualize it and say this is the end of the O.T. No! The end of the O.T. was at the cross, Mark 15:33-39. Please reconsider. ]
  ***We went over this before. I believe the Scripture teaches an over lap of the covenants. The 40 years between 30 and 70AD parallel Israel’s Exodus and entrance into the Promiseland. This is also the time in which Jesus would go into the True Holy of Holies in Heaven and offer His blood for His people before the Father. And salvation would not be complete until He returned. The Church was waiting for Christ’s Return in that generation. Plus, Jesus promised to fulfill The Law and The Prophets. Daniel prophesied a resurrection and the shattering of the Holy people.
  
  Galatians 4
  21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24NOW THIS MAY BE INTERPRETED ALLEGORICALLY: THESE WOMEN ARE TWO COVENANTS. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25NOW HAGAR IS MOUNT SINAI IN ARABIA; SHE CORRESPONDS TO THE PRESENT JERUSALEM, FOR SHE IS IN SLAVERY WITH HER CHILDREN. 26BUT THE JERUSALEM ABOVE IS FREE, AND SHE IS OUR MOTHER. 27For it is written,
  
  "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
  break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
  For the children of the desolate one will be more
  than those of the one who has a husband."
  28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29BUT JUST AS AT THAT TIME HE WHO WAS BORN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH PERSECUTED HIM WHO WAS BORN ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, SO ALSO IT IS NOW. 30But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE SLAVE WOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE SLAVE WOMAN SHALL NOT INHERIT WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
  
  Hebrews 8 13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is BECOMING OBSOLETE AND GROWING OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.
  
  Hebrews 9
  6These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. 8BY THIS THE HOLY SPIRIT INDICATES THAT THE WAY INTO THE HOLY PLACES IS NOT YET OPENED AS LONG AS THE FIRST SECTION IS STILL STANDING 9(WHICH IS SYMBOLIC FOR THE PRESENT AGE). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
  11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
  15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
  23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24FOR CHRIST HAS ENTERED, NOT INTO HOLY PLACES MADE WITH HANDS, WHICH ARE COPIES OF THE TRUE THINGS, BUT INTO HEAVEN ITSELF, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD ON OUR BEHALF. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. BUT AS IT IS, HE HAS APPEARED ONCE FOR ALL AT THE END OF THE AGES TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, NOT TO DEAL WITH SIN BUT TO SAVE THOSE WHO ARE EAGERLY WAITING FOR HIM.
  
  HEBREWS 10
  36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For, "YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND THE COMING ONE WILL COME AND WILL NOT DELAY;38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,my soul has no pleasure in him."
  39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
  
  ***How long is “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay?”
  
  February 11 at 6:26pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  This may help you see that Jesus would return when He said He would.
  
  2 Thess. 1:6-10 For after all it is only just for GOD TO REPAY WITH AFFLICTION THOSE WHO AFFLICT YOU, 7 and to GIVE RELIEF TO YOU who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN THE LORD JESUS WILL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS IN FLAMING FIRE, 8 DEALING OUT RETRIBUTION TO THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND TO THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 WHEN HE COMES TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS ON THAT DAY, AND TO BE MARVELED AT AMONG ALL WHO HAVE BELIEVED—for our testimony to you was believed.
  
  *WERE THE THESSALONNIANS AFFLICTED?
  DID PAUL NOT WRITE TO THEM THAT GOD WOULD GIVE THEM RELIEF WHEN JESUS WOULD BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN…?
  IS PAUL A FALSE PROPHET OR DID JESUS AFFLICT THE THESSALONNIAN PERSECUTORS AND GIVE THE THESSALONIANS RELIEF?
  
  February 11 at 11:57pm ·
- Aldo Yannon
  
  I can see that you have posted a lot. I am not sure where to start. I suppose I will try to make some general comments. In my last post I was trying to understand the question of the apostles in v3, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming of the end of the end of the age?” You stated that age means the end of the OT age, not the end of the age as stated in Rev 21. Do you really believe that they are asking something so trivial as the end of the OT? Do you really think that the end of the OT inaugurate the torture, betrayal, false prophets, testimonies a proclamation through the whole world (vv9-13)? Do you really think the end of the OT inaugurates suffering that has never been before (v21)? Do you really think that the end of the OT inaugurates the sun and the moon darkening and the angels coming, the elect gathered (vv29-31)? All this and Matt 26, Luke 21, Rev 21 all has to do with the end of the OT? Do you really believe this, is that how you are reading “age” here as simply the end of the OT? I told you the end of the OT is the cross.
  
  You gave me a list of verses and once again you are trying to overload me with verses. You did not look into each use and see the context, nor did you consult the BAGD and see what the nuance was for each verse was. You took all the instances where you found “age” and just assumed the meaning that you wanted. This is disappointing. The texts that are important for us to cross reference here is Mark 13 and Luke 21.
  
  As to your second post. I did not say the whole passage was fulfilled. Again I did not say that. You should look again as to what I said which is similar to what most commentators have said on the text. And if I understand you correctly then you are saying the return of Christ, the final judgement is A.D. 70. Think about what you are saying. You have to say Matt 24-25 Rev 21 is fulfilled at A.D. 70. Is this what you are saying? If it is I wish you see what kind of exegesis you are doing. One example is you do is distort the meaning “age,” in v3. Your claim that I am doing damage or making liars of the apostles is sad. Another example is from another post where you said the covenants overlap and that you have proved it from the Hebrew passage. You did no such thing, you did not prove this but you have to say this in order make everything fit into your system.
  
  I believe we are at an impasse. I am not sure what to say to you any more. I would like to meet if we could.
  
  February 15 at 2:01pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong Dear Aldo,
  Please forgive me if my tone has come across sharp. Indeed, let's get together. This weekend is not good for me. Perhaps Monday.
  
  February 16 at 7:09am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎[Do you really believe that they are asking something so trivial as the end of the OT? ]
  ***Jesus, John the Baptist, all the apostles preached an imminent judgment to the Jews (OT). Daniel said it would happen when the power of the holy people is shattered.
  
  [Do you really think that the end of the OT inaugurate the torture, betrayal, false prophets, testimonies a proclamation through the whole world (vv9-13)?]
  ***Yes all fulfilled.
  
  [ Do you really think the end of the OT inaugurates suffering that has never been before (v21)?]
  ***You conceded that v 4-34 have been fulfilled.
  
  [ Do you really think that the end of the OT inaugurates the sun and the moon darkening and the angels coming, the elect gathered (vv29-31)?]
  ***I have shown you before that this language of sun being darkened, moon turning to blood, stars falling are apocalyptic language of a nation being judged. Jerusalem was judged.
  
  [ All this and Matt 26, Luke 21, Rev 21 all has to do with the end of the OT?}
  Yes.
  
  [ Do you really believe this, is that how you are reading “age” here as simply the end of the OT?]
  Yes. Aeon = age The NT speaks of "this age" = the OT age and "the age to come" = NT age.
  
  [ I told you the end of the OT is the cross.]
  ***You told me, but you have not convinced me by Scripture.
  I can tell you that OT ended in 70AD and that was in fulfillment of the prophets, Jesus' and the apostles prophecies and the power of Jesus' Cross.
  
  I will type more later. I gotta go to work.
  
  February 16 at 7:19am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎[You gave me a list of verses and once again you are trying to overload me with verses. You did not look into each use and see the context, nor did you consult the BAGD and see what the nuance was for each verse was. You took all the instances where you found “age” and just assumed the meaning that you wanted. This is disappointing. The texts that are important for us to cross reference here is Mark 13 and Luke 21. ]
  ****Aldo, I have studied the contexts of these passages for several years and I believe my interpretation is sound. Please show me how I have erred.
  Indeed, let's stick to Mark 13 and Luke 21. These parallel accounts of the olivet discourse contain all the elements of Matt 24 including elements after v 34 occuring before "This generation..."
  
  MATT 24
  Events leading up to 70AD?
  1. v17,18 let him who is one the rooftop not go down
  2. v26,27 for just as the lightning comes from the east…
  3. v28 wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather
  
  Events still future to us???
  4. v37-39 For the coming of the son of man will be just like the days of Noah
  5. v40,41 Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left
  
  LUKE 17 All one section (events mixed)
  2. v 23,24 For just as the lightning when it flashes…
  4. v 26,27 and just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it shall be also in the days of the son of man.
  1 v31, On that day, let not the one who is on the housetop…”
  5. v35,36 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken, and the other will be left.
  3. v37 “….Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered.
  
  .
  
  February 16 at 3:20pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong
  
  ‎[As to your second post. I did not say the whole passage was fulfilled. Again I did not say that. You should look again as to what I said which is similar to what most commentators have said on the text. ]
  ***Can you please help me understand your view by telling me what verses were fulfilled and which were not? Matt 24:4-34
  
  {And if I understand you correctly then you are saying the return of Christ, the final judgement is A.D. 70. Think about what you are saying. You have to say Matt 24-25 Rev 21 is fulfilled at A.D. 70. Is this what you are saying?]
  ***Yes
  
  [ If it is I wish you see what kind of exegesis you are doing. One example is you do is distort the meaning “age,” in v3. Your claim that I am doing damage or making liars of the apostles is sad.]
  ***Brother Aldo, please show me how I am distorting the word "age" aeon? Within the context, the destruction of the temple, Christ coming, and the end of the age fits perfectly. To say the disciples were asking about 2 or more events separated by 2000 years is incredible.
  
  [ Another example is from another post where you said the covenants overlap and that you have proved it from the Hebrew passage. You did no such thing, you did not prove this but you have to say this in order make everything fit into your system.]
  ***Again, we are at an impasse, indeed.
  
  February 16 at 3:36pm ·
- Aldo Yannon I will be out for the next few days. I will continue the conversation next week.
  
  February 17 at 6:17pm ·
- Aldo Yannon We need to pick up the converstation again. Not sure where to start. Perhaps we should have dinner together this week, let me know.
  
  February 22 at 12:18pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong I have my Bible Study tonight and Thur; busy M & W nights; Friday is open as of now.
  Why not pick up and show me what parts of Matt 24.4-34 were not fulfilled in 70AD?
  
  February 22 at 3:42pm ·
- Aldo Yannon Let us try fro Firday night?
  
  February 23 at 8:41pm ·
- Tuese Ahkiong ‎8ish?
  
  February 25 at 7:14am ·
- Aldo Yannon OK! I guess I can be over your place at that time. Are we eating or not?
  
  February 25 at 11:53am ·
- Tuese Ahkiong Sorry Aldo, I think I have the flu. I can't make it tonite. I need to rest up and get better for Sunday.
  
  February 25 at 3:09pm ·
- Aldo Yannon Ok! take care. We can get together next week.
  
  February 26 at 12:09am ·

Tuese

Saturday, March 12, 2011

Eschaology Talk