If Jesus died for everyone, no one would go to hell. His death was sufficient for all, but only effective for His elect.
Tuese Ahkiong If Jesus died for everyone, no one would go to hell. His death was sufficient for all, but only effective for His elect.
May 5 at 9:50pm · Comment · Like
Billy Clyde Puckett, Sandy Merimee and 2 others like this.
Robert Rutherford Then he is a respector of persons... And the Bible is mistaken... It declares in1 Tim 4:10 that God is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. It's true.... There ARE special benefits for the believer... But he saved ALL. 1 Cor 15:22 in Adam ALL die... In Christ ALL are made alive. Namaste
May 5 at 9:57pm ·
Matthew Schultz I got here just in time. :o)
May 5 at 9:58pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong RR, are you a universalist?
May 5 at 10:05pm ·
Herson Cruz @Robert
Keyword: IN
Yes, all men are IN Adam therefore death awaits them, but not all men are IN Christ so they all cannot live.
May 5 at 10:05pm ·
Robert Rutherford Yeah... I know the religion... I USED to believe it... NOW I believe God is GOOD enough.... and GOD enough to reconcile ALL back to Himself. Why WOULDN'T he???!?
May 5 at 10:09pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong REV 22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
What do you do with v27 ? Will those who do shameful and deceitful things whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's book of life, be saved?
May 5 at 10:13pm ·
Robert Rutherford I refer to myself as am Inclusionist. A CHRISTIAN Universalist believing ONLY because of the sacrifice of Christ.... All men were drawn unto Him... I respect all views of God... Believing we are all viewing the same mountain From different places on the trail...peace to you!
May 5 at 10:14pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Thanks for the moment of sharpening. This is what I love about the net, we can have iron sharpening iron opportunities.
May 5 at 10:16pm ·
Robert Rutherford Saved from what? If you look at Rev. You will see AFTER death and hell are thrown inTO the lake of fire.... There are still those folks OUTSIDE the city gates.. BUT.. They are STILL in the new Earth... AND.. The Spirit and the Bride are saying "COME!"..... To who??? If not THEM!
May 5 at 10:19pm ·
Robert Rutherford I agree! I respect your views! I pray we will all come to a greater knowledge of the truth. Feel free to delete my comments if they will cause any problems! Thanks for the fellowship! Bedtime for me! ;-) peace & Blessings to u!!
May 5 at 10:22pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Saved from God.
Do you believe the Lamb's book of life no longer exists or is no longer needed?
gn
May 5 at 10:55pm ·
Mike Boswell Not true my brother 2! Only through the extreme Calvinistic lenses is it possible. But not what Scripture says. We have a choice! All people do. A choice to receive by faith or reject the greatest gift of all. :)
May 5 at 10:56pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
I don't know what you mean by extreme Calvinistic lenses. Can you explain.
If Jesus poured out His blood for everyone and everyone is not saved, is Jesus not a failure?
Is NOT choosing or believing in Jesus a sin?
Did Jesus die for the sin of rejecting Him?
Then shouldn't everyone go to heaven?
The Scripture teaches that Jesus will save His people, die for His sheep and His bride.
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
JESUS WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS AND IF SOMEONE IS NOT SAVED FROM THEIR SIN, IS IT NOT B/C HE IS NOT HIS PEOPLE.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
John 10:24-29 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
JESUS SAYS HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR THE SHEEP. DID JESUS LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR THE PHARISEES HE WAS TALKING TO EVEN THOUGH HE SAYS TO THEM THAT "YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP?"
Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
JESUS DIES FOR HIS BRIDE, THE CHURCH. ARE THOSE WHO LIVE TO THEIR DEATH AS SATANISTS, ATHEISTS AND BUDDHISTS, ARE THEY CHRIST'S BRIDE? ARE THERE THOSE IN SEPARATED FROM GOD IN HELL/LAKE OF FIRE CHRIST'S BRIDE?
May 5 at 11:13pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
We all interpret the Scriptures from our presuppositions. The moment we speak, our biases come out. No body is neutral. I can call you a free willer or Arminian but I won't. It's not healthy to the dialog. Why don't we just deal with Scripture. Your job will be to reconcile these verses with what you said that man has a choice.
May 5 at 11:21pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong And while you're at it, I'd like to get your take on these verses, too.
Eph 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:13-14 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2Tim1:9who has saved us and called us to a holy life not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THE CREATURE TO FREE WILL HIMSELF INTO CHRIST, SALVATION, GRACE???
May 5 at 11:24pm ·
Mike Boswell We went through tons of Scripture together at your apartment - I gave you plenty of answers and things to think about. I gave you answers to all the questions you've just posed. Why go through it all again? It seems your ears are only for the books you read and the videos you have. They have value, but they aren't Scripture. Free will is a soveriegn gift from God. Why is that so hard to believe? It's plainly seen throughout the entire counsel of Scripture. Genesis through Revelation. The idea that man doesn't have free will, with the exception of a few Scriptures like the ones you have listed, has to be forced into the text of the rest of the Bible. That's isogesis, not exegesis.
For example: John 3:16 - "...that whosover believes..." The text does not say "that whosover God chooses to believe." The text places the belief on the individual. To say anything else is reading something else into the text. That's isogesis.
Ultimately we'll find out in eternity - and we'll probably see that we're both wrong somehow...because God's ways are higher and His mind is beyond our comprehension. But, until then, I think the burden of proof lies with you, not me.
I love you man. Though I can go toe to toe with you or your best speakers you bring in or the books you read, I don't want to argue. In Ephesians 4, Paul instructs us to make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul clearly says that the most important isn't about having the greatest words or even about being right - it's about faith, hope, and love. Love being the greatest.
May 6 at 12:14am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
You're contradicting yourself. You say you don't want to argue but then you throw this entire argument in my face accusing me of reading non-free will books, eisogeting, misinterpreting the plain text of Scripture, and then you say the burden of proof rest on me (but you don't want to argue???? hmmm?).
You crack me up. You assume I'm just reading books you don't like (most likely) and not the Scripture (I'm about finished reading through the Bible my 7th time cover to cover. I go through a different translation each year.) How many times have you read through it?
Then when I present Scripture, you dis it.
Just respond to Scripture. You're a Christian and a pastor, defend your faith.
Iron sharpen iron.
May 6 at 7:30am ·
Mike Boswell I can see your point. Sorry about the contradiction in my terms regarding throwing arguments at you and then saying I don't want to argue.
I have defended my faith with you Tuese. Extensively. Both when I was with you and via Facebook. There were several things that I presented to you that you haven't yet responded to. And while I was with you, you know very well that all I had with me was the Bible. We discussed all these Scriptures and your arguments at that time. Why do I need to do it again? Unless you're actually open to a paradigm shift or change of perspective, I don't see the point.
Iron does sharpen iron, let's just make sure we don't slice the wrong people with it (I'm speaking to myself, too). We have a spiritual enemy, flesh and blood believers aren't the enemy.
Talk to you later 2.
May 6 at 8:21am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
Go ahead and refresh my memory of your questions or thoughts I didn't respond to/answer.
May 6 at 8:39am ·
Tuese Ahkiong For All,
In John 3, isn't getting born again a Sovereign act of The Holy Spirit?
3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
May 6 at 8:41am ·
John Gonzalez I tend to agree towards what Mike says, (let it go) the debate between Hugo/Ting, made me uncomfortable. Two loving Christians going at each other, it just stir-up my Sprit.
May 6 at 9:56am ·
Sandy Merimee me and Jeanette Maxwell....
May 6 at 5:24pm ·
Timothy Cheng Yes, it is sufficient for all. It is also given to all, but not all take it. That's different from saying that God predestines that only some get it. But I think that we agree on many things and that we're just fighting over a minor thing. What does that gain?
May 6 at 6:21pm ·
Ed Burley I'm with Robert. If Calvin was right, then God refuses to save all; and the scriptures are not true (God does not will that any should perish. God is the savior of all men, especially those that believe).
If Arminius was right, then man's will exceeds and conquers God's will (God does not will that any should perish...).
HOWEVER, when viewed through a Preteristic lens, we see how both sides are right...God CHOSE an elect, through whom He would save ALL. Old covenant Man (Adam) had a CHOICE to make - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who did not make that choice went through the destruction of Jerusalem...the end of all things. Death was vanquished, and destroyed; the last enemy.
LIFE now reigns through God's people; and because LIFE begets LIFE, all the world experiences LIFE as His people minister that LIFE.
IN the Old covenant, if you touched death, you became unclean. If death touched you, you became unclean. Death begat Death.
But when the menstruating woman touched Jesus...when the lepers were touched by Jesus, rather than Jesus becoming unclean; HE MADE THEM CLEAN. All he touched were made clean. ALL his bride touches is made clean - we have the power to bind and loose, to forgive; to make clean.
God has not failed - He has not created anything that He will lose. God's will cannot be thwarted by anything or anyone.
"Grave, where is your victory? Death where is your sting? For the sting of death is sin, and the law gives power to sin..." (1 Cor 15:55-56).
May 6 at 7:08pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Tim,
Does the creature make the difference by its free will or does The Creator make the difference by His grace? Does God really give His grace to all? If He does, then His grace fails at the sovereignty of the creature's will. Is God obligated to save everyone? -What about people who have never heard the name of Jesus?
It's not a minor issue, it is The Gospel. Many Christians today are preaching a water down gospel that cannot save or producing an inoculation to the real thing (these are peeps who think they're saved but not). If salvation were up to the creature, who would be saved? Again, the type of gospel being preached is a man-centered, man-effort, man-glorifying, man-does it thru his will, thru walking the isle, thru saying a prayer, thru raising his hand, thru making a decision... This is creating stillbirths.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
What does this gain? The Truth.
May 6 at 7:39pm ·
Bryan Maddox Tuese. I am greatly discouraged at the conclusions that are drawn from this view. I seek the truth as well, but should I choose to believe this theory, I will cease to be a Christian due to the horrifying conclusions drawn - I'm not referring to the conclusions raised in these discussions. As such I am unable to accept this theory and, according to this theory, we have only God to blame.
May 6 at 9:30pm ·
Timothy Cheng God isn't obligated to save everyone, but doesn't He WANT ALL to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 (KJV) says
4Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.
This gift of salvation was offered to all.
Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
May 6 at 9:35pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong If God WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED and not ALL are saved, then God's will is thwarted and He is a failure.
1 Tim 2:1-7 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL PEOPLE, 2 for kings and ALL who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom FOR ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Answer: “all” (Greek pas) in Scripture does not necessarily mean every person on the face of the earth. (Matthew 3:5, 10:22; John 3:26; Colossians 1:23) Paul uses the word 22 other times in 1 Timothy and in many of these references it does not refer to “all existing examples of” something but rather “all kinds of” something or some other meaning (1 Timothy 1:15, 2:1-2, 6, 8, 11, 3:4, 11, 4:4, 8-10, 15, 5:2, 10, 20, 6:1, 10, 13, 17).
Particularly pertinent is 6:10, “For the love of money is the root of all evil” (KJV). Money was not the “root” of Satan’s rebellion or the Fall of Adam and Eve, or many other sins. However, money is “a root of all kinds of evil” (NKJV; note: There is no definitive article “the” in the Greek).
Similarly “all” in 1 Timothy 2:4 does not refer to every person who has or will live. It refers to all kinds of people as opposed to only Jews (Matthew 13:47; Acts 10:34, 11:18; Revelation 5:9).
Moreover, if God wanted every person to be saved, then everyone would be saved since His will always comes to pass. (Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 33:10, 115:3, 135:6) But the Bible clearly teaches some will be damned (Matthew 25:26; Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8). –by Rolant Mackenzie
If Jesus acted as every single individual's mediator and ransom, shouldn’t every person that’s ever lived be in heaven?
May 6 at 11:35pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong If God WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED, ALL WILL BE SAVED. Whatever God Sovereignly wants, He gets. Perhaps, ALL is not being used in the sense you might believe it's being used. It's always good to find the antecedent of what ALL represents.
SORRY TO POP YOUR BUBBLE, BUT GOD DOES NOT WANT ALL (all w/o exception) TO BE SAVED. THE BIBLE TEACHES THIS.
I have several passages stating that God does not want certain people saved. see my most recent note.
[The gift of salvation was offered to all.]
How so? What about those who have never heard of the Name of Jesus? or the Gospel? How was salvation offered to them?
Rom 5:18-19
This should be read in its entire context, the whole book of Romans less one derive a pretext for a false doctrine. The cults do this all the time. I believe backing up to v12 will help:
Rom 5:12-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
12because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
13for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
14but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
15But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;
16and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift, for the judgment indeed [is] of one to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of `Righteous,'
17for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.
18So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;
19for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
These verses (Romans 5:18,19) are the conclusion of the argument begun by Paul in Romans 5:12. There is an analogy by contrast between what Adam did for the people whom he represented and what Christ did
for the people whom He represented. The fall of Adam and the imputation of his sin to his people Is compared to the redeeming work of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to His people.
May 7 at 12:19am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Bryan,
Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
THE LORD GAVE AND THE LORD HAS TAKEN AWAY;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
22 In all this, JOB DID NOT SIN BY CHARGING GOD WITH WRONGDOING.
Job 2: 7So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and struck Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8And he took a piece of broken pottery with which to scrape himself while he sat in the ashes.
9Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die." 10But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and SHALL WE NOT RECEIVE EVIL?" In all this JOB DID NOT SIN WITH HIS LIPS.
Job 42: 10And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. 11Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him FOR ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.
1:21--Who did Job attribute as the ultimate cause of his calamity?
1:22--Did Job sin when he attributed it to God?
2:10--Who should we accept adversity from?
2:10--Did Job sin when he said that evil comes from God?
42:11 Why did Job's brothers and sisters console and comfort Job?
42:11 Who brought on this evil?
Eccl. 7:13-14 "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14IN THE DAY OF PROSPERITY BE HAPPY, BUT IN THE DAY OF ADVERSITY CONSIDER— GOD HAS MADE THE ONE AS WELL AS THE OTHER So that man may not discover anything that will be after him."
May 7 at 12:54am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Bryan,
I find your words confusing and contradicting. You first say that you're greatly discouraged at the conclusions that are drawn from this view. Then you say that you're not referring to the conclusions raised in these discussions.
Can you help me out, what do you mean?
[Tuese. I am greatly discouraged at the conclusions that are drawn from this view. I seek the truth as well, but should I choose to believe this theory, I will cease to be a Christian due to the horrifying conclusions drawn - I'm not referring to the conclusions raised in these discussions. As such I am unable to accept this theory and, according to this theory, we have only God to blame.]
May 7 at 1:10am ·
Bryan Maddox I play many "mind-games" where, I imagine myself living out another person's point of view. It is to this that I am referring to the conclusions that can be drawn from this point of view - conclusions that make irrelevant everything about God and life itself. Still other conclusions that are impossible to describe because any and all words used to describe it are irrelevant and meaningless. There are many conclusions that can be derived... and, in skipping straight to some of these conclusions and bypassing the exceedingly long and boring thought-processes, we find that:
- Truth is in fact, relative.
- The verses to support this view can ironically be ignored and no one can do anything about it.
- There is no such thing as sin.
- God can't hold me accountable if I am not at least in some part, an individual being.
- There is no reason for salvation.
- I am in fact, God (or a part of Him) whether I am a Christian or not.
... the list goes on. Many of these conclusions lead to even more horrifying conclusions.
This is not something I can honestly, truthfully, and lovingly present as the Awesome, incredible, and wonderful Christianity as it should be. Instead, in every mind-game I have come up with, I find myself becoming the very worst of human beings.
We have reached an impasse in both schools of thought - the one that is the topic of discussion as well as the school of thought that I herald from, but do not represent. I recognize that there are some theological issues that no one has been able to successfully give an answer for. It is my recognition of these issues that prevent me from representing any current school of thought.
Rest assured that, same as you, I am in pursuit of the answers to these questions and will always be searching to know God on a deeper and more personal level than I have ever known.
May 7 at 5:50pm ·
Timothy Cheng I understand that some people won't go to heaven. But is that predestined by God? Why did God create people in the first place?
May 7 at 10:35pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Everything is predestined by God, even us dialoging about this. Amazing, huh!?
God created people for His glory. Some will glorify His grace and mercy, and some will glorify His Holiness, Righteousness, Justice and Wrath.
Now aren't you glad God has given you HIs grace?
May 7 at 10:45pm ·
Timothy Cheng Yes I am glad. But what about my family members who don't know Christ? What if they are predestined to hell? So try as we will to share the gospel, they're still going to suffer eternal death? It just doesn't seem right that loving, merciful, great God would just let someone perish. Yes I am happy that I received God's grace. No, I am still not convinced about what you're saying. Although, like Mr. Galen, I see where you're coming from.
May 7 at 10:51pm ·
Timothy Cheng Btw, thanks for your time.
May 7 at 10:51pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Tim,
You're very welcomed.
[ But what about my family members who don't know Christ?]
We should love and pray and share The Gospel with are family and friends. This is THE MEANS by which God chooses to save His people.
[So try as we will to share the gospel, they're still going to suffer eternal death?]
We don't know who is predestined to heaven or hell, so we love, pray and share with everyone.
[It just doesn't seem right that loving, merciful, great God would just let someone perish]
We're just delivery boys. God does the rest and His Will be done is what we want.
Again, God is God and He can do whatsoever He chooses. Does this bother you, Tim? What's your standard of fair? Will you judge God?
Remember, God is not just loving, merciful and great. He is HOLY HOLY HOLY, Righteous, Just and Wrathful. Don't make God into your image but submit to how He has revealed Himself in Scripture. Bottom line is not why God would let someone perish BUT WHY WOULD A HOLY GOD LET ANY EVIL WICKED WRETCHED GOD HATING SINNER like Tim and Mr. Ahkiong into His Heaven???
I would challenge you to test everything by The Bible that you're being taught by your pastors and teachers, even me. Scripture Alone is the authority!
May 7 at 11:09pm ·
Timothy Cheng Yes, God has shown us a lot of mercy. But why would a Holy God condemn the people He created for His purpose? I agree that Scripture is the authority. But I see the view I have grown up on in Scripture. This discussion has really sharpened me, but I still can't believe the Calvinist view.
May 7 at 11:25pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong God does everything for His Glory.
Apart from using the word Calvinism, what do you do with all the verses we looked at? You don't have to believe the Calvinist view, just believe the Scripture, right?
May 7 at 11:32pm ·
May 5 at 9:50pm · Comment · Like
Billy Clyde Puckett, Sandy Merimee and 2 others like this.
Robert Rutherford Then he is a respector of persons... And the Bible is mistaken... It declares in1 Tim 4:10 that God is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. It's true.... There ARE special benefits for the believer... But he saved ALL. 1 Cor 15:22 in Adam ALL die... In Christ ALL are made alive. Namaste
May 5 at 9:57pm ·
Matthew Schultz I got here just in time. :o)
May 5 at 9:58pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong RR, are you a universalist?
May 5 at 10:05pm ·
Herson Cruz @Robert
Keyword: IN
Yes, all men are IN Adam therefore death awaits them, but not all men are IN Christ so they all cannot live.
May 5 at 10:05pm ·
Robert Rutherford Yeah... I know the religion... I USED to believe it... NOW I believe God is GOOD enough.... and GOD enough to reconcile ALL back to Himself. Why WOULDN'T he???!?
May 5 at 10:09pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong REV 22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
What do you do with v27 ? Will those who do shameful and deceitful things whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's book of life, be saved?
May 5 at 10:13pm ·
Robert Rutherford I refer to myself as am Inclusionist. A CHRISTIAN Universalist believing ONLY because of the sacrifice of Christ.... All men were drawn unto Him... I respect all views of God... Believing we are all viewing the same mountain From different places on the trail...peace to you!
May 5 at 10:14pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Thanks for the moment of sharpening. This is what I love about the net, we can have iron sharpening iron opportunities.
May 5 at 10:16pm ·
Robert Rutherford Saved from what? If you look at Rev. You will see AFTER death and hell are thrown inTO the lake of fire.... There are still those folks OUTSIDE the city gates.. BUT.. They are STILL in the new Earth... AND.. The Spirit and the Bride are saying "COME!"..... To who??? If not THEM!
May 5 at 10:19pm ·
Robert Rutherford I agree! I respect your views! I pray we will all come to a greater knowledge of the truth. Feel free to delete my comments if they will cause any problems! Thanks for the fellowship! Bedtime for me! ;-) peace & Blessings to u!!
May 5 at 10:22pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Saved from God.
Do you believe the Lamb's book of life no longer exists or is no longer needed?
gn
May 5 at 10:55pm ·
Mike Boswell Not true my brother 2! Only through the extreme Calvinistic lenses is it possible. But not what Scripture says. We have a choice! All people do. A choice to receive by faith or reject the greatest gift of all. :)
May 5 at 10:56pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
I don't know what you mean by extreme Calvinistic lenses. Can you explain.
If Jesus poured out His blood for everyone and everyone is not saved, is Jesus not a failure?
Is NOT choosing or believing in Jesus a sin?
Did Jesus die for the sin of rejecting Him?
Then shouldn't everyone go to heaven?
The Scripture teaches that Jesus will save His people, die for His sheep and His bride.
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
JESUS WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS AND IF SOMEONE IS NOT SAVED FROM THEIR SIN, IS IT NOT B/C HE IS NOT HIS PEOPLE.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
John 10:24-29 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
JESUS SAYS HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR THE SHEEP. DID JESUS LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR THE PHARISEES HE WAS TALKING TO EVEN THOUGH HE SAYS TO THEM THAT "YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP?"
Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
JESUS DIES FOR HIS BRIDE, THE CHURCH. ARE THOSE WHO LIVE TO THEIR DEATH AS SATANISTS, ATHEISTS AND BUDDHISTS, ARE THEY CHRIST'S BRIDE? ARE THERE THOSE IN SEPARATED FROM GOD IN HELL/LAKE OF FIRE CHRIST'S BRIDE?
May 5 at 11:13pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
We all interpret the Scriptures from our presuppositions. The moment we speak, our biases come out. No body is neutral. I can call you a free willer or Arminian but I won't. It's not healthy to the dialog. Why don't we just deal with Scripture. Your job will be to reconcile these verses with what you said that man has a choice.
May 5 at 11:21pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong And while you're at it, I'd like to get your take on these verses, too.
Eph 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:13-14 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2Tim1:9who has saved us and called us to a holy life not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THE CREATURE TO FREE WILL HIMSELF INTO CHRIST, SALVATION, GRACE???
May 5 at 11:24pm ·
Mike Boswell We went through tons of Scripture together at your apartment - I gave you plenty of answers and things to think about. I gave you answers to all the questions you've just posed. Why go through it all again? It seems your ears are only for the books you read and the videos you have. They have value, but they aren't Scripture. Free will is a soveriegn gift from God. Why is that so hard to believe? It's plainly seen throughout the entire counsel of Scripture. Genesis through Revelation. The idea that man doesn't have free will, with the exception of a few Scriptures like the ones you have listed, has to be forced into the text of the rest of the Bible. That's isogesis, not exegesis.
For example: John 3:16 - "...that whosover believes..." The text does not say "that whosover God chooses to believe." The text places the belief on the individual. To say anything else is reading something else into the text. That's isogesis.
Ultimately we'll find out in eternity - and we'll probably see that we're both wrong somehow...because God's ways are higher and His mind is beyond our comprehension. But, until then, I think the burden of proof lies with you, not me.
I love you man. Though I can go toe to toe with you or your best speakers you bring in or the books you read, I don't want to argue. In Ephesians 4, Paul instructs us to make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul clearly says that the most important isn't about having the greatest words or even about being right - it's about faith, hope, and love. Love being the greatest.
May 6 at 12:14am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
You're contradicting yourself. You say you don't want to argue but then you throw this entire argument in my face accusing me of reading non-free will books, eisogeting, misinterpreting the plain text of Scripture, and then you say the burden of proof rest on me (but you don't want to argue???? hmmm?).
You crack me up. You assume I'm just reading books you don't like (most likely) and not the Scripture (I'm about finished reading through the Bible my 7th time cover to cover. I go through a different translation each year.) How many times have you read through it?
Then when I present Scripture, you dis it.
Just respond to Scripture. You're a Christian and a pastor, defend your faith.
Iron sharpen iron.
May 6 at 7:30am ·
Mike Boswell I can see your point. Sorry about the contradiction in my terms regarding throwing arguments at you and then saying I don't want to argue.
I have defended my faith with you Tuese. Extensively. Both when I was with you and via Facebook. There were several things that I presented to you that you haven't yet responded to. And while I was with you, you know very well that all I had with me was the Bible. We discussed all these Scriptures and your arguments at that time. Why do I need to do it again? Unless you're actually open to a paradigm shift or change of perspective, I don't see the point.
Iron does sharpen iron, let's just make sure we don't slice the wrong people with it (I'm speaking to myself, too). We have a spiritual enemy, flesh and blood believers aren't the enemy.
Talk to you later 2.
May 6 at 8:21am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Mike,
Go ahead and refresh my memory of your questions or thoughts I didn't respond to/answer.
May 6 at 8:39am ·
Tuese Ahkiong For All,
In John 3, isn't getting born again a Sovereign act of The Holy Spirit?
3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
May 6 at 8:41am ·
John Gonzalez I tend to agree towards what Mike says, (let it go) the debate between Hugo/Ting, made me uncomfortable. Two loving Christians going at each other, it just stir-up my Sprit.
May 6 at 9:56am ·
Sandy Merimee me and Jeanette Maxwell....
May 6 at 5:24pm ·
Timothy Cheng Yes, it is sufficient for all. It is also given to all, but not all take it. That's different from saying that God predestines that only some get it. But I think that we agree on many things and that we're just fighting over a minor thing. What does that gain?
May 6 at 6:21pm ·
Ed Burley I'm with Robert. If Calvin was right, then God refuses to save all; and the scriptures are not true (God does not will that any should perish. God is the savior of all men, especially those that believe).
If Arminius was right, then man's will exceeds and conquers God's will (God does not will that any should perish...).
HOWEVER, when viewed through a Preteristic lens, we see how both sides are right...God CHOSE an elect, through whom He would save ALL. Old covenant Man (Adam) had a CHOICE to make - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who did not make that choice went through the destruction of Jerusalem...the end of all things. Death was vanquished, and destroyed; the last enemy.
LIFE now reigns through God's people; and because LIFE begets LIFE, all the world experiences LIFE as His people minister that LIFE.
IN the Old covenant, if you touched death, you became unclean. If death touched you, you became unclean. Death begat Death.
But when the menstruating woman touched Jesus...when the lepers were touched by Jesus, rather than Jesus becoming unclean; HE MADE THEM CLEAN. All he touched were made clean. ALL his bride touches is made clean - we have the power to bind and loose, to forgive; to make clean.
God has not failed - He has not created anything that He will lose. God's will cannot be thwarted by anything or anyone.
"Grave, where is your victory? Death where is your sting? For the sting of death is sin, and the law gives power to sin..." (1 Cor 15:55-56).
May 6 at 7:08pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Tim,
Does the creature make the difference by its free will or does The Creator make the difference by His grace? Does God really give His grace to all? If He does, then His grace fails at the sovereignty of the creature's will. Is God obligated to save everyone? -What about people who have never heard the name of Jesus?
It's not a minor issue, it is The Gospel. Many Christians today are preaching a water down gospel that cannot save or producing an inoculation to the real thing (these are peeps who think they're saved but not). If salvation were up to the creature, who would be saved? Again, the type of gospel being preached is a man-centered, man-effort, man-glorifying, man-does it thru his will, thru walking the isle, thru saying a prayer, thru raising his hand, thru making a decision... This is creating stillbirths.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
What does this gain? The Truth.
May 6 at 7:39pm ·
Bryan Maddox Tuese. I am greatly discouraged at the conclusions that are drawn from this view. I seek the truth as well, but should I choose to believe this theory, I will cease to be a Christian due to the horrifying conclusions drawn - I'm not referring to the conclusions raised in these discussions. As such I am unable to accept this theory and, according to this theory, we have only God to blame.
May 6 at 9:30pm ·
Timothy Cheng God isn't obligated to save everyone, but doesn't He WANT ALL to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 (KJV) says
4Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.
This gift of salvation was offered to all.
Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
May 6 at 9:35pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong If God WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED and not ALL are saved, then God's will is thwarted and He is a failure.
1 Tim 2:1-7 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL PEOPLE, 2 for kings and ALL who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom FOR ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Answer: “all” (Greek pas) in Scripture does not necessarily mean every person on the face of the earth. (Matthew 3:5, 10:22; John 3:26; Colossians 1:23) Paul uses the word 22 other times in 1 Timothy and in many of these references it does not refer to “all existing examples of” something but rather “all kinds of” something or some other meaning (1 Timothy 1:15, 2:1-2, 6, 8, 11, 3:4, 11, 4:4, 8-10, 15, 5:2, 10, 20, 6:1, 10, 13, 17).
Particularly pertinent is 6:10, “For the love of money is the root of all evil” (KJV). Money was not the “root” of Satan’s rebellion or the Fall of Adam and Eve, or many other sins. However, money is “a root of all kinds of evil” (NKJV; note: There is no definitive article “the” in the Greek).
Similarly “all” in 1 Timothy 2:4 does not refer to every person who has or will live. It refers to all kinds of people as opposed to only Jews (Matthew 13:47; Acts 10:34, 11:18; Revelation 5:9).
Moreover, if God wanted every person to be saved, then everyone would be saved since His will always comes to pass. (Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 33:10, 115:3, 135:6) But the Bible clearly teaches some will be damned (Matthew 25:26; Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8). –by Rolant Mackenzie
If Jesus acted as every single individual's mediator and ransom, shouldn’t every person that’s ever lived be in heaven?
May 6 at 11:35pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong If God WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED, ALL WILL BE SAVED. Whatever God Sovereignly wants, He gets. Perhaps, ALL is not being used in the sense you might believe it's being used. It's always good to find the antecedent of what ALL represents.
SORRY TO POP YOUR BUBBLE, BUT GOD DOES NOT WANT ALL (all w/o exception) TO BE SAVED. THE BIBLE TEACHES THIS.
I have several passages stating that God does not want certain people saved. see my most recent note.
[The gift of salvation was offered to all.]
How so? What about those who have never heard of the Name of Jesus? or the Gospel? How was salvation offered to them?
Rom 5:18-19
This should be read in its entire context, the whole book of Romans less one derive a pretext for a false doctrine. The cults do this all the time. I believe backing up to v12 will help:
Rom 5:12-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
12because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
13for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
14but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
15But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;
16and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift, for the judgment indeed [is] of one to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of `Righteous,'
17for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.
18So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;
19for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
These verses (Romans 5:18,19) are the conclusion of the argument begun by Paul in Romans 5:12. There is an analogy by contrast between what Adam did for the people whom he represented and what Christ did
for the people whom He represented. The fall of Adam and the imputation of his sin to his people Is compared to the redeeming work of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to His people.
May 7 at 12:19am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Bryan,
Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
THE LORD GAVE AND THE LORD HAS TAKEN AWAY;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
22 In all this, JOB DID NOT SIN BY CHARGING GOD WITH WRONGDOING.
Job 2: 7So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and struck Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8And he took a piece of broken pottery with which to scrape himself while he sat in the ashes.
9Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die." 10But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and SHALL WE NOT RECEIVE EVIL?" In all this JOB DID NOT SIN WITH HIS LIPS.
Job 42: 10And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. 11Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him FOR ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.
1:21--Who did Job attribute as the ultimate cause of his calamity?
1:22--Did Job sin when he attributed it to God?
2:10--Who should we accept adversity from?
2:10--Did Job sin when he said that evil comes from God?
42:11 Why did Job's brothers and sisters console and comfort Job?
42:11 Who brought on this evil?
Eccl. 7:13-14 "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14IN THE DAY OF PROSPERITY BE HAPPY, BUT IN THE DAY OF ADVERSITY CONSIDER— GOD HAS MADE THE ONE AS WELL AS THE OTHER So that man may not discover anything that will be after him."
May 7 at 12:54am ·
Tuese Ahkiong Bryan,
I find your words confusing and contradicting. You first say that you're greatly discouraged at the conclusions that are drawn from this view. Then you say that you're not referring to the conclusions raised in these discussions.
Can you help me out, what do you mean?
[Tuese. I am greatly discouraged at the conclusions that are drawn from this view. I seek the truth as well, but should I choose to believe this theory, I will cease to be a Christian due to the horrifying conclusions drawn - I'm not referring to the conclusions raised in these discussions. As such I am unable to accept this theory and, according to this theory, we have only God to blame.]
May 7 at 1:10am ·
Bryan Maddox I play many "mind-games" where, I imagine myself living out another person's point of view. It is to this that I am referring to the conclusions that can be drawn from this point of view - conclusions that make irrelevant everything about God and life itself. Still other conclusions that are impossible to describe because any and all words used to describe it are irrelevant and meaningless. There are many conclusions that can be derived... and, in skipping straight to some of these conclusions and bypassing the exceedingly long and boring thought-processes, we find that:
- Truth is in fact, relative.
- The verses to support this view can ironically be ignored and no one can do anything about it.
- There is no such thing as sin.
- God can't hold me accountable if I am not at least in some part, an individual being.
- There is no reason for salvation.
- I am in fact, God (or a part of Him) whether I am a Christian or not.
... the list goes on. Many of these conclusions lead to even more horrifying conclusions.
This is not something I can honestly, truthfully, and lovingly present as the Awesome, incredible, and wonderful Christianity as it should be. Instead, in every mind-game I have come up with, I find myself becoming the very worst of human beings.
We have reached an impasse in both schools of thought - the one that is the topic of discussion as well as the school of thought that I herald from, but do not represent. I recognize that there are some theological issues that no one has been able to successfully give an answer for. It is my recognition of these issues that prevent me from representing any current school of thought.
Rest assured that, same as you, I am in pursuit of the answers to these questions and will always be searching to know God on a deeper and more personal level than I have ever known.
May 7 at 5:50pm ·
Timothy Cheng I understand that some people won't go to heaven. But is that predestined by God? Why did God create people in the first place?
May 7 at 10:35pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Everything is predestined by God, even us dialoging about this. Amazing, huh!?
God created people for His glory. Some will glorify His grace and mercy, and some will glorify His Holiness, Righteousness, Justice and Wrath.
Now aren't you glad God has given you HIs grace?
May 7 at 10:45pm ·
Timothy Cheng Yes I am glad. But what about my family members who don't know Christ? What if they are predestined to hell? So try as we will to share the gospel, they're still going to suffer eternal death? It just doesn't seem right that loving, merciful, great God would just let someone perish. Yes I am happy that I received God's grace. No, I am still not convinced about what you're saying. Although, like Mr. Galen, I see where you're coming from.
May 7 at 10:51pm ·
Timothy Cheng Btw, thanks for your time.
May 7 at 10:51pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong Tim,
You're very welcomed.
[ But what about my family members who don't know Christ?]
We should love and pray and share The Gospel with are family and friends. This is THE MEANS by which God chooses to save His people.
[So try as we will to share the gospel, they're still going to suffer eternal death?]
We don't know who is predestined to heaven or hell, so we love, pray and share with everyone.
[It just doesn't seem right that loving, merciful, great God would just let someone perish]
We're just delivery boys. God does the rest and His Will be done is what we want.
Again, God is God and He can do whatsoever He chooses. Does this bother you, Tim? What's your standard of fair? Will you judge God?
Remember, God is not just loving, merciful and great. He is HOLY HOLY HOLY, Righteous, Just and Wrathful. Don't make God into your image but submit to how He has revealed Himself in Scripture. Bottom line is not why God would let someone perish BUT WHY WOULD A HOLY GOD LET ANY EVIL WICKED WRETCHED GOD HATING SINNER like Tim and Mr. Ahkiong into His Heaven???
I would challenge you to test everything by The Bible that you're being taught by your pastors and teachers, even me. Scripture Alone is the authority!
May 7 at 11:09pm ·
Timothy Cheng Yes, God has shown us a lot of mercy. But why would a Holy God condemn the people He created for His purpose? I agree that Scripture is the authority. But I see the view I have grown up on in Scripture. This discussion has really sharpened me, but I still can't believe the Calvinist view.
May 7 at 11:25pm ·
Tuese Ahkiong God does everything for His Glory.
Apart from using the word Calvinism, what do you do with all the verses we looked at? You don't have to believe the Calvinist view, just believe the Scripture, right?
May 7 at 11:32pm ·
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